Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I'm sorry, but knowing Jesus, is NOT a "get out of jail free" card. A moment of bliss and being filled with the Holy Spirit, is a glimpse into God's enormous love, not the end of the story. Usually those called by God are most attacked by the enemy. How we respond to God's calling determines our salvation. It's about the sacrifice and love we provide in our lives. Only God understands our personal circumstances, whether or not, we regretted our sins, and only He can determine how much we loved and obeyed him.
On a side note: A friend, who had apparitions(visions), told me that many people at death, are so ashamed of themselves that they can't, and refuse to enter heaven. She said that while God is mercifull and loving, once many deceased realize how terribly they lived their lives, and how they tarnished their souls are, feel too dirty and embarrased to enter the light. We have to keep our hearts filled with His love. This is absolutely NOT church doctrine, but I personally, find interesting.
“That’s my point. I am not, nor is any man, the Judge of anyone. It is God Almighty. Anyone, whether Calvin or 1000 silverlings, who attempts to determine those who are condemned are condemned themselves”
You are shifting the argument. You said they were “unable to provide verse that supports predestination to hell”. No one has said they knew who was predestined to hell.
The Rev. 20:15 when coupled with Rev. 17:8 says that God before the foundation of the world elected some to life and those who were not elect were destined to hell.
The scriptures don’t say much on the subject of reprobation since they are primarily a revelation of redemption, but they say enough.
ena
Biblically speaking, we've been shown that we can have enormous faith in God, and still be decieved by the enemy. Daily prayer is essential. Constant humility and remorse is alse needed.
“We are not God. I don’t know if you are Catholic, or not, but we can not determine what God will do for others. For anyone to think they can, they are being duped by the evil one.”
No one has said they have the capacity to determine who is going to heaven or hell. What we do know from scripture is that “all that the Father has given me (Jesus) will come to me (Jesus); and he that cometh to me (Jesus) I (Jesus) will in no wise cast out”. What we also know from the scripture, Rev. 17:8, is that God has chosen those who will come from the “foundation of the world”. But since He has not let us in on the list, He has commanded us to be witnesses to His redemptive plan in Christ Jesus.
ena
I will go out on a limb here and say that I think that anyone having “visions” should seek spiritual guidance immediately and if that is not possible, to do as St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila advised; St. John of the Cross advised ignoring the visions—period—(because they could be from an wrong spirit and because we are not to seek or desire special spiritual “gifts”) and St. Teresa advised a warm bowl of soup and some extra rest. In short, I personally would not believe a vision where anyone—confronted with judgment before the Lord, would refuse to enter heaven. Rather, I would think of that last opportunity to access His Divine Mercy—which is what the Gospel is all about.
None of us can know what that moment of judgment will—in truth—be like, because no one has come back to tell us. But we can ALWAYS fall back, every moment of our lives and at the moment of our death, on the redemption of the Holy Cross and His Precious Blood shed there, and the mercy promised to us there.
Anything less than that, IMO, is a lack of faith.
Don't get too annoyed at me for commenting on things that are not church doctrine. Everything happens for a reason. Marysecretary and I understand each other.
I am not annoyed.
That you and Marysecertary understand each other is fine with me.
Anybody here claim to have any more Faith than what was given to him? Not me, for sure. Everything I have that is worth anything was and continues to be a gift. It's ALL gift. All of it.
Well, not all are, and I have no clue at all why you would think so. Neither does that have anything whatsoever to do with my wonderment about how someone who goes my "Sola Scriptura" picks a scholar.
Also mentioned, was that fasting and self-denial is important for us to have control over our "human" impulses. That one I have a hard time with. Vanity is still my primary motivator. Pray for me, please.
Like I said, it is VERY interesting. If you were there, you would understand.
I address this to you because of your sentence which reads...
“And none come to Christ except the Father call him. In other words, the elect come to Christ, called by the Father, the rest are the depraved wicked and their lot is Hell.”
Anyone can answer my question tho...I would appreciate any input...
If as you assert, none can come to Christ, unless the Father calls him and the rest are condemned to Hell, then what happens to those that have never even heard about Christ...
I know that this may seem like a silly question to some here, but I can not understand this...certainly there have been whole tribes of people, in remote areas, that never ever heard of Christ....so are all of these people automatically condemned to Hell?....is it, that God made them all wicked, set them in a place where no missionaries would reach them, and then throw them all into Hell?....
I mean, to me, it is more likely then not, that in the year, say 500, very few missionaries, were in deepest Africa....if those people living in Africa at that time, never heard of Christ, how could the Father call them to someone they never heard of?...that is my question...I mean if they never heard of Christ, never knew who Christ was, never knew what Christ went through, then how could they be called to come to Christ?....or were all those people born in Africa just ‘born’ wicked, and even tho there was no one to tell them about Christ, they deserve hell anyway?
Perhaps I am dense, and it is true, that my Biblical knowledge is much poorer than most on these threads, but I just dont understand this...I am sure someone, sometime, must have asked this question, I just never saw it, or if I did, I do not remember the answers....
Should anyone care to answer, I give my thanks in advance...
I am Catholic, but I do not know if I am giving a Catholic answer, it is just my opinion.
It is my opinion that God embeds in each human the knowledge of right and wrong. It is my opinion that whatever a person culturally is taught, we all have the awareness of the Highest Being, and that Love is the highest goodness. I believe this holds true in the far distant past, the present, and the future.
Because I believe that God is Love, and that He loved mankind enough to send His only begotten Son to save us, He also has made Loving provision for those who have never known Him the way we have. I’m convinced that He will seek and save those who were and are lost throughout all time, and will absolutely see that they are given the Gospel to accept or decline.
He is God. He is Love. He can do ANYTHING. Any attempt to limit Him or His Love for His creation is, in my opinion, a rejection of Him. Any attempt to define Him solely by scripture is doomed, and anyone using scripture to limit God to THEIR understanding is judging him/herself.
Just my opinion.
Thank you for your answer...your answer rings true for me as well, whether it is a Catholic answer or just your opinion...thanks so much...
AAMM, I have been your FRiend for a long time. This is what I believe in my heart.
Well, I have to say, I believe this in my heart as well...I cannot conceive of a God, who would create millions of people who never heard of Christ, because of the time of the place where they were born and lived, and then because of that, would condemn them to hell...
Tho I assume others feel differently...your way tho, seems best and does resonate with me as well...many thanks...
Beautifully put!
The Lord God of all creation did not set about sadistically. Calvin was wrong.
Thanks...I am just trying to understand how different religions, or different people deal with this question, that has long puzzled me...I appreciate your input...
LOL, I survived but we only stayed out a couple of hours because my MIL called and said she was sick so my husband and son went to check on her. They stayed with her most of the afternoon and then came home. I thought she probably needed to come here until she feels better so we went back and got her.
We just got her settled, she seems to be improving. She’s 85 and she gets terrified anytime she gets sick. She lives 3 miles from the nearest neighbor up on the side of a mountain and 18 miles from us. There are always rattlesnakes in her yard and my grandson killed one this evening.
I have been after my husband to add a little apartment to our house for a couple of years now but he said she’d never come live here but I think she’s getting ready.
I live in southern NM, 18 miles from the Mexican border .
I agree with Judith Anne too. It is something I’ve always believed even before I became Catholic. There are some who will not hear the Gospel through no fault of their own.
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