Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I usually (except for Bible quotes since I have repeatedly explained that I use the NAB) give references.
I did not in this case and apologize for it.
LOL. Mark, it's SOP to attribute the source of our writing to the actual author of that writing when the work isn't our own. Otherwise, it looks like other people's words and writing have been plagiarized.
I've noticed you've done that before and you were called on it.
Not a good habit.
Do you understand the necessity for proper attribution? Do you know how to link? If not, any of us can show you how.
He was raised in a religious lifestyle and was prepared for the Episcopalian priesthood. He was successful and served in various locations. Fine so far.
When the good people of Connecticut wanted him as bishop, he went to England for consecration by the English bishops and was turned down. So he went second best - to the Scots.
He remembered that all his life and, as head bishop in the States, led the Episcopalians away from the CofE and, I think, to a lesser or second best mode of theology, which brings us to the present day.
I am unaware of the ability on FR to delete my own posts.
I haven't noticed you doing those things. You apparently have better manners.
I don't want this to become a big thing. Next time, just post the link, and excerpt a few sentences or paragraphs to support the point you're making.
That method is SOP on FR; it's polite to your audience and it's polite to the forum in general.
***I don’t care about cults. Born again believers are what I’m interested in, not even protestant mainline churches.***
Without the guidance of the Church, how do you even begin to judge who is a cult and who is not? Scripture is not enough since most of the cults rely on some verse anyway.
I am going to stay with the tried and true.
Don’t delete it, Mark. Let it stand.
But they both realized Jesus was using metaphors for spiritual reality. Nicodemus understood he would not be physically born again and the Samaritan women understood that Jesus was not giving her physical water, just as the the disciples understood Jesus was referring to His words that give eternal life, not His physical body and blood.
Peter, later in John, makes a similar mistake when Jesus washes his feet and he says “wash me all” and Jesus has to remind him that this is not the inward spiritual washing; he has already received for he has trusted Christ, what he needs is the washing of the outward “dust” of the world.
Dr. Eckleburg wrote: ***The Apocrypha never claims to be inspired. Nor is the Apocrypha ever quoted in the New Testament, not even once.***
Really?
Sirach 16:12
Great as his mercy is his punishment; he judges men, each according to his deeds.
1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.
1 Macc. 2:52
Was not Abraham found faithful in trial, and it was reputed to him as uprightness?
James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
Wisdom 15:7
For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: Both the vessels that serve for clean purposes and their opposites, all alike; As to what shall be the use of each vessel of either class the worker in clay is the judge.
Rom. 9:21
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
2 Maccabees 7
It also happened that seven brothers with their mother were arrested and tortured with whips and scourges by the king, to force them to eat pork in violation of God’s law... When he was completely maimed but still breathing, the king ordered them to carry him to the fire and fry him. As a cloud of smoke spread from the pan, the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die bravely, saying such words as these: “The Lord God is looking on, and he truly has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his canticle, when he protested openly with the words, ‘And he will have pity on his servants...’” Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them.” Thus he too died undefiled, putting all his trust in the Lord. The mother was last to die, after her sons.
Sirach 44:19
ABRAHAM, father of many peoples, kept his glory without stain:
Rom. 4:17
As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”
Wis. 13:1-10
For all men were by nature foolish who were in ignorance of God, and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing him who is, and from studying the works did not discern the artisan; But either fire, or wind, or the swift air, or the circuit of the stars, or the mighty water, or the luminaries of heaven, the governors of the world, they considered gods. Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods, let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these; for the original source of beauty fashioned them. Or if they were struck by their might and energy, let them from these things realize how much more powerful is he who made them. For from the greatness and the beauty of created things their original author, by analogy, is seen. But yet, for these the blame is less; For they indeed have gone astray perhaps, though they seek God and wish to find him. For they search busily among his works, but are distracted by what they see, because the things seen are fair. But again, not even these are pardonable. For if they so far succeeded in knowledge that they could speculate about the world, how did they not more quickly find its LORD? But doomed are they, and in dead things are their hopes, who termed gods things made by human hands: Gold and silver, the product of art, and likenesses of beasts, or useless stone, the work of an ancient hand.
Rom 1:18-25
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Wis. 5:17-20 He shall take his zeal for armor and he shall arm creation to requite the enemy; He shall don justice for a breastplate and shall wear sure judgment for a helmet; He shall take invincible rectitude as a shield and whet his sudden anger for a sword, And the universe shall war with him against the foolhardy.
Eph. 6:13-17
Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Wis. 11:7
Instead of a spring, when the perennial river was troubled with impure blood as a rebuke to the decree for the slaying of infants, You gave them abundant water in an unhoped-for way, once you had shown by the thirst they then had how you punished their adversaries.
Matt. 2:16
When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.
Wisdom 7:7
Therefore I prayed, and prudence was given me; I pleaded and the spirit of Wisdom came to me.
Eph. 1:17
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[6] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Sirach 29:11
Spend your money for your brother and friend, and hide it not under a stone to perish; Dispose of your treasure as the Most High commands, for that will profit you more than the gold. Store up almsgiving in your treasure house, and it will save you from every evil;
Matt. 6:19-20
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
Tobit 4:15
Do to no one what you yourself dislike.
Matt. 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you
Sirach 27:6
The fruit of a tree shows the care it has had
Matt. 7:16,20
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Judith 11:19
You will drive them like sheep that have no shepherd,
Matt. 9:36
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
Tobit 7:18
“Be brave, my daughter. May the Lord of heaven grant you joy in place of your grief. Courage, my daughter.” Then she left.
Matt. 11:25
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
“The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.”
Wisdom 16:13
For you have dominion over life and death; you lead down to the gates of the nether world, and lead back.
Matt. 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Tobit 3:8
For she had been married to seven husbands, but the wicked demon Asmodeus killed them off before they could have intercourse with her, as it is prescribed for wives. So the maid said to her: “You are the one who strangles your husbands! Look at you! You have already been married seven times, but you have had no joy with any one of your husbands. I have given her in marriage to seven men, all of whom were kinsmen of ours, and all died on the very night they approached her. But now, son, eat and drink. I am sure the Lord will look after you both.” Tobiah answered, “I will eat or drink nothing until you set aside what belongs to me.” Raguel said to him: “I will do it. She is yours according to the decree of the Book of Moses. Your marriage to her has been decided in heaven! Take your kinswoman; from now on you are her love, and she is your beloved. She is yours today and ever after. And tonight, son, may the Lord of heaven prosper you both. May he grant you mercy and peace.”
Matt. 22:25
Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
1 Macc. 1:54
On the fifteenth day of the month Chislev, in the year one hundred and forty-five, the king erected the horrible abomination upon the altar of holocausts, and in the surrounding cities of Judah they built pagan altars. Matt. 24:15
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[2] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—keeping before their eyes the lawless outrage perpetrated by the Gentiles against the holy Place and the affliction of the humiliated city, as well as the subversion of their ancestral way of life.
1 Macc. 2:28
Thereupon he fled to the mountains with his sons, leaving behind in the city all their possessions.
Matt. 24:16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Matt. 27:43
He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ “ Wisdom 2:18
For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes.
Sirach 40:15
The offshoot of violence will not flourish, for the root of the godless is on sheer rock;
Mark 4:5
Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Judith 16:17
in the day of judgment he will punish them: He will send fire and worms into their flesh, and they shall burn and suffer forever.”
Mark 9:48
hell, where “ ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’
Judith 13:1
Then Uzziah said to her: “Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the creator of heaven and earth, who guided your blow at the head of the chief of our enemies.
Luke 1:42
In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!
Sirach 10:14
The thrones of the arrogant God overturns and establishes the lowly in their stead.
Luke 1:52
He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble.
Tobit 11:9
Then Anna ran up to her son, threw her arms around him, and said to him, “Now that I have seen you again, son, I am ready to die!” And she sobbed aloud.
Luke 2:29
“Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss[4] your servant in peace.
Baruch 4:37
Here come your sons whom you once let go, gathered in from the east and from the west By the word of the Holy One, rejoicing in the glory of God.
Luke 13:29
People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Sirach 28:18
Many have fallen by the edge of the sword, but not as many as by the tongue.
Luke 21:24
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Wisdom 9:1
God of my fathers, LORD of mercy. you who have made all things by your word
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Baruch 3:29
Who has gone up to the heavens and taken her, or brought her down from the clouds?
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Wisdom 8:8
The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade.
John 4:48
“Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
Wisdom 2:16
He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.
John 5:18
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Sirach 24:21
He who eats of me will hunger still, he who drinks of me will thirst for more;
John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
1 Macc. 4:5
Then Judas and his brothers and the entire congregation of Israel decreed that the days of the dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness on the anniversary every year for eight days, from the twenty-fifth day of the month Chislev.
John 10:22
Then came the Feast of Dedication[2] at Jerusalem. It was winter,
Wis. 4:5
Their twigs shall be broken off untimely, and their fruit be useless, unripe for eating, and fit for nothing.
John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Sirach 35:12
For he is a God of justice, who knows no favorites.
Acts 10:34
Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
Wisdom 13:10
But doomed are they, and in dead things are their hopes, who termed gods things made by human hands: Gold and silver, the product of art, and likenesses of beasts, or useless stone, the work of an ancient hand.
Acts 17:29
“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill.
Wis. 13:1
For all men were by nature foolish who were in ignorance of God, and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing him who is, and from studying the works did not discern the artisan;
Rom. 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Wis. 11:15
And in return for their senseless, wicked thoughts, which misled them into worshiping dumb serpents and worthless insects, You sent upon them swarms of dumb creatures for vengeance;
Rom. 1:23
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Wis. 14:12,24-27
They no longer safeguard either lives or pure wedlock; but each either waylays and kills his neighbor, or aggrieves him by adultery. 25 And all is confusion-blood and murder, theft and guile, corruption, faithlessness, turmoil, perjury, 26 Disturbance of good men, neglect of gratitude, besmirching of souls, unnatural lust, disorder in marriage, adultery and shamelessness. 27 For the worship of infamous idols is the reason and source and extremity of all evil.
Rom. 1:24-27
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
Wisdom 2:24 But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it.
Rom. 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
Wisdom 9:13
For what man knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?
1 Cor. 2:16
“For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?”
Sirach 36:18
Be not drawn after every enjoyment, neither become a glutton for choice foods, 29 For sickness comes with overeating, and gluttony brings on biliousness. 30 Through lack of self-control many have died, but the abstemious man prolongs his life.
1 Cor. 6:12-13
“Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13”Food for the stomach and the stomach for food”—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body
Wis. 13:3
Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods, let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these; for the original source of beauty fashioned them.
1 Cor. 8:5-6
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God
Wisdom 19:7
The cloud overshadowed their camp; and out of what had before been water, dry land was seen emerging: Out of the Red Sea an unimpeded road, and a grassy plain out of the mighty flood.
1 Cor. 10:1
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
Baruch 4:7
For you provoked your Maker with sacrifices to demons, to no-gods;
1 Cor. 10:20
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.
2 Macc. 12:43-45.
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
1 Cor. 15:29
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
Wis. 5:18
He shall don justice for a breastplate and shall wear sure judgment for a helmet;
Eph. 6:14
Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
2 Macc. 12:15
But the King of kings aroused the anger of Antiochus against the scoundrel.
1 Timothy 6:15
15which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Wisdom 2:16
Therefore shall they receive the splendid crown, the beauteous diadem, from the hand of the LORD- For he shall shelter them with his right hand, and protect them with his arm.
2 Tim. 4:8
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
Wisdom 18:15
Your all-powerful word from heaven’s royal throne bounded, a fierce warrior, into the doomed land,
Heb. 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Sir 44:16
(ENOCH walked with the LORD and was taken up, that succeeding generations might learn by his example.)
Heb. 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
Sirach 25:22
Depressed mind, saddened face, broken heart—this from an evil wife. Feeble hands and quaking knees— from a wife who brings no happiness to her husband.
Heb. 12:12
Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees.
Sirach 5:11
Be swift to hear, but slow to answer. 14 If you have the knowledge, answer your neighbor; if not, put your hand over your mouth. 15 Honor and dishonor through talking! A man’s tongue can be his downfall.
James 1:19
My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
Sirach 3:17
2 My son, conduct your affairs with humility, and you will be loved more than a giver of gifts.
James 3:13
Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.
Sirach 29:10-11
Spend your money for your brother and friend, and hide it not under a stone to perish; 11 Dispose of your treasure as the Most High commands, for that will profit you more than the gold.
James 5:3
Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
Wisdom 2:10-20
Let us oppress the needy just man; let us neither spare the widow nor revere the old man for his hair grown white with time. 11 But let our strength be our norm of justice; for weakness proves itself useless. 12 2 3 Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training.
James 5:6
You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.
Wisdom 3:5-6
Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. 6 2 As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself.
1 Peter 1:6-7
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
Wisdom 10:6
She delivered the just man from among the wicked who were being destroyed, when he fled as fire descended upon Pentapolis—
2 Peter 2:7
and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
Wis. 16:13
For you have dominion over life and death; you lead down to the gates of the nether world, and lead back.
Rev. 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Wisdom 18:16
bearing the sharp sword of your inexorable decree. And as he alighted, he filled every place with death; he still reached to heaven, while he stood upon the earth.
Rev. 2:12
“To the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword.
Sirach 1:8
He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
Rev. 5:7
There is but one, wise and truly awe-inspiring, seated upon his throne: 7 It is the LORD;
The early Church used the Septuagint (Greek) and eventually added the NT to it (also in Greek).
Please don’t quote Schaff to me. He is a bigoted anti Catholic. You may as well quote Ian Paisley. Try some unbiased sources please.
1 Pet 2:
7
Therefore, its value is for you who have faith, but for those without faith: “The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
8
and “A stone that will make people stumble, and a rock that will make them fall.” They stumble by disobeying the word, as is their destiny.
None of your verse alludes to predestination to hell except for a misinterpretation of Peter here. The verse is saying that anyone without faith will stumble on the word - Jesus. Therefore Peter exhorts everyone to have faith.
***Surely Mark realizes I could just as easily clog his ping list with endless tracts from Calvin or Luther, but I don’t.***
You have, admittedly infrequently, in the past, posted some lengthy prose from different sites.
***Most of the time for FR I’m on Web-TV where the “brevity” header doesn’t work. ***
Is there no way around it? It seems odd that that functionality would be impaired. Perhaps someone familiar with Web tv might see your plight and offer some assistance. I know little about Web tv.
You seem like a nice, sincere soul. I’ve questioned a lot of things myself over the years.
I think the problem I have is when people will lay flowers before a “statue” of Mary. That is just way too close to how the pagans worshipped for my taste and I know Jews never laid flowers down before any kind of stone icon or carving, etc. I know Jesus kept the Jewish law perfectly so that’s my take on that one.
Also, as for asking any of the Saints to pray, while on one level I can see the point, my only issue is we are not to talk with dead people. My dad died recently and I wouldn’t ask him to intercede for me, so why would I ask any other dead person to pray for me. As for the “Saint” recognition, even that gets a little fuzzy since the Catholic church has some very procedural process that they do before they determine a person a Saint. I guess for now I’ll just stick with praying to the only dead person that I know actually rose from the dead - Jesus - and the live people I know.
As the Scriptures say, “to him that thinks it sin, it is sin” (that’s my paraphrase).
God bless you as you continue on your journey.
It’s interesting that Luke just happened to be a painter and painted in the style of all the Greeks who came way after him.... sometimes a little skepticism is good.
If you do not also ask your dead family members (the ones you know loved our Lord) to intercede on your behalf then this argument is weak.
I always am stunned when Catholics say that Protestants just don’t understand these things when so many Protestants are former Catholics. If they don’t get it, then who would?
Always the character, aren’t you. Gotta big smile out of the “baba” comment.
I personally like “mee maw”
I think if we look at the creeds (The Nicene Creed and the Apostles’ Creed) and let them define for us what our Christian faith is about we can be safe. The cults always have something out of whack.
In the meantime, the reason the creeds were developed was specifically to answer questions in the early days when all of these other heresies started getting legs (the gnostics, arianism, etc. - I can’t remember some of the other stuff floating out there but there was plenty).
And, folks, let’s start getting together and worrying about things like Oprah pushing the Secret and A New Earth and all of this new age crapola that leads people away from the WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE.
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