Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I sure wouldn’t put it that way.
I would say that some things the RC edifice overtly encourages are greatly hazardous to one’s soul.
when their own personal opinion excludes the Christianity of billions of Christians
= = =
What a brazen falsehood.
I don’t say that and I don’t believe that.
Of course if someone felt that Devout meant inordinate devotion and adoration of Mary and similar junk, then I’d wonder how they really were and how much they really put God first.
But that would still be something between them and God and something I could at most make guesses about—and virtually all of those would be hazardous judgment on my part—depending.
—Behavioral expenditures
—Energy expenditures
—Time expenditures
—Word/text expenditures
all declare otherwise . . . persistently . . . and in many locales and contexts.
—waddles like a duck
—floats like a duck
—quacks like a duck . . .
There are manifestly
rougly ONLY 1600 years of the RC magisterical.
All claims otherwise are a bald faced deception of succeeding cliques of RELIGIOUS political power-mongers meeting in committee.
Not at all an admirable group to ask to show one the way to the uhhhhh dumpster—much less the way to heaven.
One can fool some of the people most of the time . . . and maybe most of the people some of the time . . .
But that dog just won’t hunt.
The observable behaviors are wholesale otherwise on the part of a sizable chunk of RC’s the world over and particularly in some countries.
And, actually, to my view, for a chunk of folks hereon, IF observables have any congruence with reality at all.
INDEED . . .
of course, after first whitewashing 1600 years of very flexible “history.”
Hmmmm Glad some others have noticed, too. Sad, that.
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ circa AD 32.
That’s a precedent, for us. It’s an indication of how the Church functions.
How individual congregations or local clusters of congregations are to operate—I Cor 12-14.
period.
Simple.
See Maryz, no matter what a billion Catholics believe in their heart, what’s important is what a clique of anti-Catholic bigots CLAIM Catholics believe. All else is dross.
I think you make some points worth pondering.
Now, now.
We have to respect the
RC EDIFICE !!!!TRADITIONS!!!!
that—the rules are for the others to keep—but virtually never to be of any bother for RC’s!
/s
THE RC DOUBLE STANDARD STRIKES AGAIN.
It’s all the Body of Christ.
Actually, it did occur to me that, from what I know of Protestant services, they consist of some preaching, some hymns, some prayers. Not too different from one of our novenas (some of which may be to Mary), which are pretty, well, peripheral. No Catholic has to attend novenas, many (perhaps most) never have.
The center of our worship is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in which God is offered to God -- the reenactment of the Sacrifice of Calvary, as the apostles were commanded by Christ. If you saw The Passion of the Christ, you'll remember John's powerful flashback at the Crucifixion to "This is My Body, Whish shall be given up for you" as he understood the words fully -- a dramatic representation, but it makes the point.
So, as I said, it's not that Catholics honor Mary too highly -- it seems to be that some Protestants don't honor Christ enough.
I try to make it clear but there’s no understanding of what I’m saying. Nor do I believe they really care to understand it. Sigh.
a conveniently placed set of political RELIGIOUS power-mongers with ample secular geopolitical and economic backing set up around 400 AD.
It helps to be more honest and more historically accurate.
I gather it is the RC EDIFICE
ASSUMPTION
That Christ was speaking to the Disciples as an exclusive group
rather than the more likely
as examples of all Christians to follow.
What a fantasy. It seems the RC edifice is great at fantasies.
I think the Protty inferences and assumptions are much more logical, Biblically and historically based.
If you have found Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour and you have received Him into your life, Praise the Lord. That’s what it takes to be saved. Hallelujah. Yes, I have the infallible knowledge that I am saved by God’s grace, which is more than sufficient for me. I LONG that others have that knowledge.
If you really knew me, you would know that the statements you are making are untrue. It’s hard to ‘say’ things here and make people understand how you feel about them and their salvation. Is it wrong for me to want you to be saved and to know it before the casket closes down on you? It’s possible, you know. I am truly sorry you think so ill of me but I am what I am, a sinner saved by grace. I love you no matter what you say to me.
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