. . . on both counts!
Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
. . . on both counts!
Some things are obviously not for the uninitiated.
***Hundreds of millions of souls misled by Luther and his iconoclastic successors.***
Not just Luther.
The success of the Reformation depended to a great degree upon the irritation of the German nobility towards the Church. Without the influence of the Church, they could assume dictatorial control of their lands without any moral interference. Luther et al certainly wouldn’t provide any, so that they could see their way to complete control.
Calvin, on the other hand, assumed theocratic control over Geneva, killing, torturing and excommunicating with reckless abandon. A nice fellow, until he examined your soul and found it wanting.
I’m glad you’re not one of those troglodytes who refuse to capitalize Catholic proper nouns because a capital letter might reflect some tiny modicum of respect on the Catholic Church.
***It is gibberish.***
So is sola scriptura and sola fides. Hasn’t stopped ‘em yet.
They bounced him out because he wanted his own theocratic autocracy....the Genevans accused him of making himself an (ersatz) pope.
And we know Jean by his fruits.
I think good works are simply being a good example. That means being a faithfull person in whatever your calling is. If it is a parent, it means being a good example for your children. Sacrificing your own needs for those of your children. Teaching to have faith in God through your own example. Like going to church.
Mother Theresa is a perfect example of someone who lived her Catholic faith. It is looking at someone who talks of God, and others can see her love, in action, as well as words. Like they say, "talk is cheap".
(That's supposed to be a Cockney accent and I 'ereby give up)
Our pastor preached again and said:
I don't believe Jesus! [We all know he's kidding so we didn't give the rhetorically expected gasp.] You aren't the light of the world, and I'm not either; you have no savor and neither have I.Not bad, I thought, for a midweek 'omily.JESUS is the light of the world, Jesus is the salt. We have no light or savor of our own. If we are to be the salt and light of the world we must abide in Jesus. Abide in Him.
So if you fail at being a good example is that a sin?
I love to see fellow Catholics go to church on days other than Sundays. I have friends that go every day. They amaze me. I became a part of a group called Regnum Christi, what a blessing!! That has really helped me in my walk of faith. Pray for me Mad Dawg. Compared to some of my friends, I REALLY fall short. I want to be better. Thanks.
***I’ve always felt that a definition of “good works” helps in discussions of this sort. Are good works, keeping the laws, partaking of sacraments, baptism, helping someone, etc. Or are all these “good works”?***
All of these are, yet they are not all encompassing. I’d suggest a reading of Matt 5 through 7 - the Sermon on the Mount. A study of the Beatitudes might also serve.
Matt 5:
17
13 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
18
Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
19
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 14
20
I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21
15 16 “You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’
22
17 But I say to you, whoever is angry 18 with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
23
Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you,
24
leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
25
Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
26
Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
27
19 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28
But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29
20 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna.
30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna.
31
21 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a bill of divorce.’
32
But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
33
22 “Again you have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘Do not take a false oath, but make good to the Lord all that you vow.’
34
But I say to you, do not swear at all; 23 not by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
35
nor by the earth, for it is his footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
36
Do not swear by your head, for you cannot make a single hair white or black.
37
24 Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’ Anything more is from the evil one.
38
25 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
39
But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.
40
If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well.
41
Should anyone press you into service for one mile, 26 go with him for two miles.
42
Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.
43
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44
But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
45
that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
46
For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors 28 do the same?
47
And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? 29
48
So be perfect, 30 just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt 7:
21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’
24
12 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
25
The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
26
And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
Throughout the Gospels, Jesus exhorts us to do as He commands. Whoever does not act on His words will be like a fool. The house of sand is a belief only and not an action.
Matt 25:
31
14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44
18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
I am not the Judge; I cannot fully define what ‘good works’ are or how they apply in all cases. All I can do is point to the vast expanses of the Gospels in which Jesus tells us to do. I do not believe that ignoring these will result in other than what He tells us the results will be.
I prefer to think of it as excelling in the field of presenting a really bad example.
We are asked to love Him, first and foremost, love each other, and forgive. It sounds easier than it is. That is why Catholics have all these traditions and look to all the heavenly beings for help. Psalms Chapter 103, covers it for us.
***They bounced him out because he wanted his own theocratic autocracy....the Genevans accused him of making himself an (ersatz) pope.***
Yeah, they bounced him out and took him back and then bounced him out again. But they are the Swiss.
***And we know Jean by his fruits.***
I didn’t know that he frequented bathhouses. Interesting. Google is indeed our friend. It appears that John Calvin was a drunkard, an adulterer and a frequent homosexual in addition to his other sterling qualities. I wonder what our Reformed brethren will say to that, or is this yet another shameful secret that they will not comment on.
Wow! You are still on this battle? Awesome. Thanks for defending the faith and the Church and our Blessed Mother!
Thanks, I can’t break away, I think this is getting in the way of my Catholic virtues. It’s becoming a vice. LOL
Mt 22:36 “[Jesus], which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, ’You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”
Jesus came for all men. Not all men will love God and their fellow man, to their detriment.
Good works are a goal, we can only do our best. Only God can determine our hearts and circumstances. We all sin, which takes us away from God. We simply have to do our best, and be persistent.
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