Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Not true to anyone that honors the Bible.
This is where honoring the Bible dies. It looks and sounds innocent but it is to disregard the scriptures completely as I have previously posted regarding the kid getting milk analogy.
>>What about his brothers? <<
Yes, they were there. All of His brothers and sisters. I am His sister.
There is a debate about the meaning of “brother”. As I said before, my adopted sister is called my sister. Christ called many men “Brother”.
This is because the bible is full of examples of God asking us to be good and do good.
James 2:23-26
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God." See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. There are plenty of similar references to God expecting good works.
From a simple common sense perspective, what is so terribly WRONG about the Catholic faith teaching people to do GOOD WORKS? I don't get it.
Fine, whatever.
But the Catholic Church preaches a faith-plus-works-based salvation.
Good thing you weren't talking about the Catholic Church. Otherwise your words would have been blatantly false.
Fine, whatever.
But the Catholic Church preaches a faith-plus-works-based salvation.
Good thing you weren't talking about the Catholic Church. Otherwise your words would have been blatantly false.
The Scriptures also tell us that one of the standards by which we shall be judged on the last day, is our works. As Matthew 16:27 tells us, and I quote: "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels: And then will he render to every man according to his works." The Book of the Apocalypse (otherwise called "Revelations" by protestants) says the same thing in chapter 20 verse 13, while in Chapter 22 verse 13 of the same book it says the following "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works."
The Scriptures also command us to heed and put into practice the Sacred words of Christ, as the following verses bear witness, John 3:36; 5:24; 12:50; 13:17; 14:15; Luke 6:47; 10:37; 1 John 3:24; 2:5. And since it is necessary for us to put into practice the Sacred Words of Christ, and to heed them, the following also become necessary for salvation:
1. Eating the Flesh and drinking the Blood of Christ (John 6:32)
2. We must truly seek to be perfect (Matthew 5:48)
3. Hope is necessary for salvation (Romans 8:27; 2 Timothy 4:8 Hebrews 9:28)
4. Holiness is necessary for salvation (Matthew, 5:20)
5. Hearing Christ’s Church is necessary for salvation (Matthew 18:17)
6. Believing is necessary for salvation (Mark 16:16)
7. Being a member of Christ’s Church is necessary for salvation.
I would say God gave us a lot of guidance, but in the end only He will know.
That's a stern warning from Christ to those who reject His commands. Included among His commands is "DO THIS."
I think those who mock His gift of the Holy Eucharist (as alchemy, among other epithets) are going to find themselves in quite a pickle.
Auntie Em, Auntie Em, come quick! There's been a terrible 'splosion down at the ellipsis factory.
John 6:29,44,47,63
Here we see on parade the classic protestant disdain both for (a) Holy Eucharist and (b) CONTEXT.
The words of Christ are chip-chopped thinner than Isaly's deli ham....all to make His words say what the poster wants, rather than what He said.
It is true to anyone who honours our Lord.
Don't you know King James WROTE the Bible!?!
I am come, a light into the world, that whosoever believeth in me may not remain in darkness. And if any man hear my words and keep them not, I do not judge him for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. --John 12:46-47
You mean like when Luther added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28?
“Faith-plus-works,” brother.
Do not fall for the false dichotomy of faith-based or works-based. Both are necessary.
Did Luther do this for them? We need a rebel warrior reformist to fight back. We are really ill-equipped for fighting with our brothers. Just kidding
Good post and good choice of scriptures.
Heavens no!
He started it, but he is not responsible for all of it. Nor is Zwingli or Calvin et al.
It has been what WWII historians call "salami tactics." Slice by slice is removed one at a time. It doesn't seem like much at the time, until you turn and look at how much of the salami is gone.
There was a shampoo commercial in the 80s. The girl says "I told two friends and they told two friends and so on and so on" (as the shampooed girls on the screen multiply into Brady-Bunch blocks...4 then 9 then 16 etc.). So too are the pure, true, sola scriptura-based churches...each of them different, each convinced they are the pure.
Meanwhile like imbeciles we're taught to see Jesus in everyone.
No, not like imbeciles. Like Christians:
You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thy enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.
For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? Do not even the publicans this? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? Do not also the heathens this? Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. --Matthew 5:43-48
LOL! Yes -- Biblical Dowdification!
God so loved the world that He didn’t send a committee. One of my favorite lines...
I've spoken to several Jews, of Israeli origin, who will openly and politely tell me that they don't trust Evangelical Christians. Since I wasn't exposed to the views on this forum, I defended my fellow Christians and could not understand their perspective - at all. I was only familiar with loving Christians, and admired the evangelical zeal. Now I realize that there is a fringe element out there, that is a little "lost".
I have also asked why they vote Democrat. Like some Catholics, they think it is probably because we are taught to defend the downtrodden and the poor. The Dems at one point in time presented themselves as kind servants of the people. There is also the fact that there are many Jews in Name Only. That is also a problem for Catholics.
Your concern shouldn't be with practicing Catholics, we LOVE our God, and we love you.
Because our traditions strengthen us, we can get fairly comfortable. Perhaps like the Jews. For the most part, we have strong families, good educations, and a good infrastructure withing our church, that has perhaps given us a false sense of security.
I happen to be lucky enough to be in a Catholic church that is on fire with the Holy Spirit. That is not always the case.
That is just my perspective.
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