The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[maryz]

Admirable effort! (applauding) Just work a bit more on the disjointed stream-of-consciousness thing -- too much continuity! ;-)

[wagglebee]

You speak as if Calvinists make up the majority of Protestants, they DON’T.

[mgist]

When we see here how many people believe they can be saved through baptism, through Mary, or the Eucharist, it really makes us hurt for those who do believe that, because it may lose them their salvation.

We believed that we are saved through Jesus also. We happen to think that there are many things, that God has given us, to help remain in Jesus. Prayers are essential. We do pray to Jesus and ask others to help us. We do believe in eternal life, and feel that those that have served our God continue to do so in spirit. Not all Catholics follow doctine, and that is perfectly fine. My personal experience is that Mother Mary, was given to us as an excellent role model, and I have felt her presence. She led me to Jesus. I really appreciate her.

The Pope, and other good men, have dedicated their lives, left behind wordly goods, and family behind, to dedicate their entire lives to God.

The Pope has done nothing to hurt you, yet some people hate him. I really find that sad. It hurts me too. You love your children, does that mean you love God less? Of course not. You likely love God more, when you love your children more. If you were to describe your love of a deceased grandmother, who you knew was in heaven next to God, you would probably be accused of worshipping her, but you don't. You simply love her. In loving God, you love others.

[Mad Dawg]

I KNOW that! Jeepers! I KNOW that. I'm OKAY with that! If you DID agree you'd me over in the next pew fiddling with your beads. (In the words of the great Tom Lehr - or however you spell it, The Vatican Rag:

Get down there upon your knees
Fiddle with your Rosaries
Bow your head with deep respect and
Genuflect!
Genuflect!
Genuflect!

Do what ever steps you want if
You have cleared them with the Pontiff.
Everybody says his own
Kyrie Eleison
Doin' the Vatican RAG!)

"Everybody say his own//Kyrei Eleison" is one of the great rhymes of the 20th century.

[trisham]

You speak as if Calvinists make up the majority of Protestants, they DON’T.

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What denomination does? There are so many different groups.

[Quix]

Wouldn’t greatly move me.

I’d mostly consider it a perspective.

And, the way some Charismatic/Pentecostals behave . . . a fairly unsurprising perspective.

I’d probably suspect that the author wasn’t overly fond of Charismatics/Pentecostals.

But it’s also plausible that the person was offended at a particular group or family or preacher or service or some such.

And, it’s also plausible that the person was exaggerating for effect in an argument.

Certainly nothing worth my getting my knickers in a twist over.

It has not a microgram’s of influence on MY RELATIONSHIP with God 1:1. Sooooooo, I don’t need to get the least bit emotional about it.

I might be sad that so many have such a skewed perspective on Charismatics/Pentecostals. But, I’ve been around long enough to know that it’s not 100% unfounded.

I may consider it wholesale exaggerated; 98% off the wall wrong; misinormed; a result of some unfortunate out of balance experiences; . . . whatever.

But it’s not punishment from God on Mt Sinai.

It’s just a human perspective from unfortunate understandable human causes.

Even if 98% of all RC’s felt that way—it would still just be a human perspective from unfortunate human causes. I’d be sadder if 98% of all RC’s felt that way but it wouldn’t wind my emotions up except maybe to feel sadder that so many felt that way.

I could even imagine that the author really had a love for Charismatics/Pentecostals and wanted them earnestly to “see the light” as the author saw it—however misguided I thought that might be.

I don’t know how to articulate things better . . .

Charismania is not per se the sum total of my relationship with God. It’s an important—sort of—label to use as short-hand in talking about many important aspects of my relationship with God. But it’s just a label.

And all the Charismatic groups/congregations etc. are just collections of folks working out their Salvation as Biblically as they can with Holy Spirit’s assist. None of them gets it perfectly as individuals nor as groups. ALLLLL see through the glass darkly. That’s part of what it means to be human.

The Charismatic leaders are not perfect nor infallible. All of everything must be checked with Scripture AND with Holy Spirit and we all miss it. And we all need grace and must extend grace. We all need forgiveness and must extend forgiveness. We are all bruised by other’s judgments and must learn to avoid judging unBiblically.

I met John Wimber in Taipei. I was responsible for guarding his warmup-room—green room before he went ‘on.’

He was incredibly authentic. Just as I’d seen him in his videos. He was super humble and unaffectedly so. He’d have been the first to insist he was not infallible.

Yet, he got more things more right about Charismatic Christian life and church life of anyone I’ve ever known. And, somehow, he even managed to infect the Vineyard churches with some wisdom in how to choose wise, humble, anointed, truly spiritual leaders. But not infallibly.

And, while I can enjoy cathedrals and even worshipped in one for many months . . . there’s something quite New Testament about worshipping in a warehouse, in homes . . .

And there’s something about tradition that the insecure little country-hick farmboy part of me would like to nestle into and take security and comfort from. But God has never allowed me that luxury. He has persistently insisted that I have Him as my Daddy, My Security, My Tradition, My Edifice, My High Tower . . . My All-in-All.

Yeah, I’ve often been like the little boy ready for some “God-with-skin-on.” And there’s been very little of that. God’s path for me has mostly been the road not taken . . . by very many others.

And I’ve been forced to learn the hard way that most, if not all, Protty groups are as guilty of idolatry and leaning on flawed tradition as much as many RC groups.

A lot of Protty idolatries are more whitewashed, more ostensibly ‘sanctified’ and disguised than so many of the RC idolatries. Doesn’t make them less deadly.

With relentless persistence, God has forced me repeatedly to the place where it was GOD ALONE AND I. Nothing else. Nothing in between. Nothing buffering. Nothing distracting. No other pacifiers, blinky’s, teddy bears, arms of flesh to lean on.

With relentless persistence He’s repeatedly brought me to the place where all the accoutraments of RELIGION were trashed, shredded, burned to ask and blown away in this or that fiery furnace.

One particularly hard, dark and long fiery furnace I was reduced to knowing merely that there was a God. I thought that maybe, hoped that maybe Jesus was His Son, but I wasn’t even too sure about that any more. Slowly God built back the basics of my faith walk with Him.

GOD AND GOD ALONE.

There’s nothing else worth anything of any substance.

Only when that is rock solid secure and rock solid the eternal central focus of a soul can anything else be added without hurting the soul.

I wish I could say it better, dear MD. That’s probably the best I can do off the top of my head.

And, I have to leave shortly for a pizza thing with my mother’s cousin’s son.

I hope it’s comprehensible.

Blessings,

[wagglebee]

None. However, there are approximately 750 million Protestants worldwide, only about 75 million of them are Calvinists.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Sorry I missed that "response." It seemed so flippant and unScriptural, I thought you must be kidding. I guess not.

DR.E: Has the "mystery which hath been hid from the ages and from generations" "now been made manifest" to you?

NETMILSMOM: I don't claim manifestation about anything.

Manifestation; to manifest: "Apparent to the senses, especially that of sight, or to the mind; evident; obvious; clear; to reveal; to make known."

Most Christians I know would happily say the truth of Christ risen has been made manifest (known) to them.

But, surprisingly, you "don't claim manifestation about anything."

Read your Bible and pray to God to "know" the "mystery" that is "revealed" therein.

"For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance." -- Acts 2:25-28

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"(Christ) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself" -- Ephesians 1:7-9

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"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." -- Romans 16:25-27

"To God only wise." I love that line.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I speak as a Presbyterian. All Presbyterians, Methodists, Congregationalists, Anglicans and most all other Protestant denominations believe exactly as Calvin wrote. Baptists believe even less in any kind of "real presence."

The only Protestants who believe in anything remotely like a "real presence" are the Lutherans. And even they stop short of the errors of transubstantiation.

[stfassisi]

Excerpts from your post...

Calvin denies the descent of Christ's body

Calvin would only allow the word real

this is denied by Calvin

Calvin employs paradoxical language

Lets fix this...

CalvinThe devil denies the descent of Christ's body

CalvinThe devil would only allow the word real

this is denied by theCalvin devil

CalvinThe devil employs paradoxical language

John Calvin was possessed,DR E, I am 100% convinced that he was demoniacally influenced

[wagglebee]

SOME Methodists subscribe to Calvinism, but still retain some belief in the Real Presense. Anglicans DO retain their belief in the Real Presense.

[tiki]

Oh no! Only 75 million people have been elected? What is to happen to the rest of us?

[wagglebee]

Well, Dr. E has decided that Methodists and Anglicans also subscribe to Calvinism, which is laughable.

[Marysecretary]

The charismatics I’ve known, at least in the past 25 years in my own experience in my church, have been the most loving and the least judgemental Christians I’ve known. They have loved me (and others), supported me, prayed for me, surrounded me when I needed that, cared for me. I am so grateful for the charismatic movement. Sure, some of it did get out of hand, but God has been refining us and most of the charismatic, spirit-filled churches around us are well balanced between the Word and Worship, the gifts of the Holy Spirit and such. I praise God for them.

[trisham]

Interesting. Thanks!

[Petronski]

Sola Cauvin

[Marysecretary]

In my 39 years of being a Christian, I’ve only really known ONE. And, of course, now Dr. E. and others here.

[wagglebee]

Is it just me or does the YOPIOS crowd seem to rely upon a whole lot of books other than the Bible?

[wagglebee]

Where might I ask do you live if you’ve only known one Calvinist?

[tiki]

I was a Methodist for 46 years and this is the first I’ve heard of it. We know where and why Anglicans came about and Methodists came about from the Anglicans and they had nothing to do with Calvin.