Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I trust you can read and reason, Petronski, so what’s the problem? Not clear enough or what????
You’re welcome Petronski. Hope yours will get you into Heaven one day. I look forward to your being there.
Someone had to know the truth of the scriptures. Jesus certainly did. There were people who taught the others what the scriptures themselves taught. That’s the way it’s always been. The Early Church (not the Catholic church) certainly must have taught their converts what they learned from others.
We’ve been round robin’s barn on this a few times, wagglebee. Protestants do not believe when we take communion that it is the actual blood and body of the Lord Jesus Christ. We probably never will. We aren’t cannibals. The Eucharist can save no one, even if you take it faithfully. ONLY putting your faith and trust in Jesus Christ will do that, not eating a wafer you think is Him.
LOL. So true.
>>Bible was the truth and your one true church lied to you.<<
Can you give me an example of the Catholic Church teaching that the Bible lies?
Has the "mystery which hath been hid from the ages and from generations" "now been made manifest" to you, mgist?
You called that remark ""personally nasty."
How is that question "personally nasty???"
I would think most Christians would be happy to answer that question. I am...
Yes, thank God, by His merciful grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, the "mystery which hath been hid from the ages and from generations" has "now been made manifest" to me by the Holy Spirit who guides me through the Holy Scriptures, according to the will of God.
Thank you, Jesus.
So how in the world does that remark warrant mgist's response comparing me to "Al Qaeda !?!"
As I said, it's laughable.
And I also notice I've received no answer from mgist. How about you, netmilsmom? Has the "mystery which hath been hid from the ages and from generations now been made manifest" to you?
Or is that question offensive to you?
Yeah, that’s a goodie. I pray we all end up in heaven so we can really get to know each other!
Comments?
Salvation is that easy. But:)....IMO, it needs more explanation to be clear.I believe Catholics can be saved hence Christian, just as I believe Protestants can be lost, hence not Christian.
Becky
Forgive me if I continue to dance around the question without trying again to address it "full on". I guess I'm hoping that the sentences used to flesh out the question will evolve to a place where I think I can say something useful and direct.
Anyway, I think we are presented with two phenomena: (1)Cult of saints, especially Mary; (2)Controversies.
I would venture to say that both of these arose sort of independently of the development of the canon of the NT. And nobody was saying, Hey! We need to check this stuff with the Scriptures and only the Scriptures.
The controversies, starting with the Gentile circumcision controversy, established the Church as the bearer (or the speaker? conduit?) of an unfolding (developing) revelation. (Why weren't the Bereans called upon as "periti", experts, in the Council in Jerusalem?) What does it mean, if anything, that the Bereans are singled out for this description and notice?)
There is a discontinuity in the Biblical record, but why must we think that there was a discontinuity in the life of the Church. It is only after the Reformation tht we look back and say, Hey! Looka that! The Council of Trent closed the OT canon! But the Church for all those hundreds of years wasn't fretting about the OT canon or thinking it must be closed, not until there was a controversy.
And presumably the Church knew about the Bereans and their study of the OT to see if Jesus was the Christ. But it was only sporadically (as far as we know) that people suggested that should be the only way to study, and that it should be expanded to include the NT.
So I think the question about the Bereans and the now suggests what may be a false picture and a false discontinuity.
This is kind of smrt-alecky, but I think it's important:
Are we so different than the Jews and Greeks of Paul’s time that we need more interpretive aids than they did?
Well, there's the NT. Do we complain about needing THAT interpretive aid?
Please don't give up on me. I think we may be able to get somewhere.
Where do I do that? Of course Jesus loved His mother more than any other human. That doesn’t mean he prayed to her or expects us to. We pray to God through the true intercessor, the Son.
Your unbelief in sola scripture certainly sends out a few clues.
The “al Queda” sidebar has been removed as it was clearly “making it personal.” Do not pick at the scab.
That’s true. There are what we call carnal christians, those who may attend church but not really believe in Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. When Catholics put their faith and trust in Jesus as Lord and Saviour, they are saved.
Sorry, personal nasty has come up from time to time.
When you use someone’s name, it’s personal.
And if you don’t want to be compared with a group that thinks that everyone who doesn’t believe what they do will end up in the fires of hell, don’t state it. I wouldn’t have used that group but as Dear Old Reggie said, you two are both adults. I wouldn’t presume that Our Lord would condemn anyone to hell. I am not Him and do not know His mind.
Pick at a person and that person may just go off on you. Hand a person some respect and you will get that back.
I don’t claim manifestation about anything.
Do you think Mgist will go to heaven, being a Catholic?
Do you have a scripture that backs this? I would say the Jesus loved all His people equally. His love is beyond our understanding.
>>Your unbelief in sola scripture certainly sends out a few clues.<<
Where is Sola Scriptura in the Bible?
Wouldn’t you love your mother more than the lady next door? It’s a natural feeling. God IS love, for sure, but the human part of Jesus had a mother he loved and even though scripture doesn’t come right out and say so, I believe it’s true.
As I've suggested before, perhaps you should figure out what other Protestants believe before you start debating Catholics about it. MOST Protestants, believe in some form of the Real Presense.
I would qualify this statement by saying "When Catholics put their faith and trust ONLY in Jesus as Lord and Savior, they are saved, they become saints:). Any works they do, they do because they are saved, not to earn salvation or to keep their salvation.
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