Act NOW! Prices are BOUND to go up soon!
Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
>>In a row?!? <<
Yes! Storms rolled through MI at about 11:30 Sat night. The power for our block went out. The next set of storms rolled in at about 4:00 on Sunday. The power came back around 8:00pm. I guess it was a bit less than 20, but it felt like a week in the heat.
Tons of downed power lines and trees. The blessing was that the neighbors across the street (next block) had power and let us connect our Freezer in the garage with many extention cords. We were going to roll that freezer down the street to friends (of course I just went shopping!) but my very smart hubby thought of asking the one’s nearer to us. We ate cereal all day to use up the milk.
Others had generators. It was wild.
I need soooooo badly to get a generator!!!!
The neighbors saved us with the food, and we had (seriously, Friday) just gotten one of the “ring” pools. But my poor babies were in that pool all day, (Dad and I were too, It was 92 and humid) and no amount of sunscreen helped. Both of them are lobsters today.
Dad ushers at 6:30 mass. The second set of storms rolled in at 4:00 so it was dark. The girls were holding flashlights on him while he shaved with an old safety razor. My hair looked like a fuzzball because of no hair care appliances. Ugh.
I’m sorry about the lift chair. The visual on that is too funny but I’m sure it wasn’t at the time!!!!
>>No one is saved as a Roman Catholic <<
So are you saying that every Roman Catholic is going to hell?
>>e.g. the Mary doctrine<<
When the posters here, with grace and tact, point out what the church actually teaches and disagrees, I have no problem. If they agreed, they would be Catholic. Protestants are our Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
When the discussion falls to nasty remarks about perceived notions, yes I am offended, especially when the remarks seem to bait. Not because a person has a different opinion, but rather because they are allowed to argue like they do on the DU. I’ve seen both sides slam beliefs (past disagree, slam) but a particular few have a no holds barred way of doing things.
I know that some of it is the passion of the moment. I really feel that some should be reminded to tone it down. Being firm about one’s truth does not mean that beating on another’s will get one anywhere.
And here is a question for you. It’s not meant to be nasty, it’s just a question. What is your criteria for a Brother or Sister in Christ? And not a bait either, I try not to bait.
I needed that chair a few years ago but I don't think I need it any more. My arms still work and I don't need it to stand up. Time to part with it!!!
I had a 6,500 watt (peak) electric start generator (my arms work but I can't handle any pull start devices without falling over backwards. As Hank Stram would say "bad---very bad." In any event the generator, 6 circuit transfer switch, materials, and installation from my garage, underground wiring about 25-30') to the electric panel in my house cost less than $2,000. It has been a life saver and, although it is not a very sophisticated setup, it is very flexible and simple to use.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment.
So, in your OPINION, EVERYONE prior to the early 16th Century was denied Salvation?
>>I’ll bet you didn’t know I can curse at an inamimate object much more fervently that at a human.<<
Were you military? My hubby, the former Marine, can too!!!
I will look into a generator like yours!
Religious leaders and pontificators have been modeling haughtiness toward religious serfs for at least 2000 years. Human nature is pretty consistent—especially in hierarchical bureaucratic power-mongering human structures.
Perfectly logical . . . as if that mattered.
You asked: "What is your criteria for a Brother or Sister in Christ?"
God says that those of us who have been born again by Him are His adopted children, i.e. brothers and sisters in Christ:
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. – I Corinthians 12:13
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:5-8
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: - Romans 8:14-16
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. - I Corinthians 2:6-16
She is, by the way, Catholic.
To God be the glory!
You are addressing in post 4184 a person who has stated that Catholics are not Christians.
Jesus is "the light of the world". That is another way of saying that He IS the truth. He also says "I am the way, the truth, and the life".
I know this is true by virtue of being born again.
What bothers me are lies, it is possible that you believe the lies, but they are still lies. Lies about things related to our God. That is calumny. Maybe that's why we simply shouldn't judge each other. We can disagree or bring up issues, not lie. If I ever bring up an issue it is to defend a point. I would never pretend to tell someone how to worship. I would never pretend to be God, and determine who was worthy of him ot not. I guess the best bet is to avoid pointless insults. Like Catholics are slaves etc.
It would appear to me that . . .
in view of the relentless posts hereon to that effect . . . that the obvious answer is most certainly, yes, RC’s do precisely that.
The implications of that are horrendous.
God Almighty is a jealous God.
Even all the granite monuments, edifices, statues in the world are but chaff—or worse—before Him.
Folks who treat such otherwise may well be in for a big surprise.
I wonder . . . take two identical twins . . . one an RC and one a Pentecostal Protty.
Imagine them shipwrecked with only their multi-tools on to very similar fruitful but deserted South Pacific Islands.
Upon their crawling upon the beach, a voice from Heaven instructs both: Worship me in spirit and truth—the Almighty God of the Angel Armies and of The Bible—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—and your Lord Jesus Christ.
All well and good.
After a few hours or a few days . . . these naked-before-God twin brothers begin to get some shelter together and have staked out some fruit trees.
The RC starts to carve a shrine and female figure to enclose in it. Stepping back a few feet to admire his handiwork, a lightening bolt out of a blue sky incinerates the shrine to ashes quickly blown away.
He ponders that for a few days. After a week, not being the brightest bloke in Parochial school, he decided to try again.
He gets the shrine foundation placed on a sheltered but prominent rock outcropping and goes to get another piece of wood to carve. As he turns his back and takes a few steps away, another lightening bold zaps the wood foundation of the shrine AND the entire rock outcropping to oblivion.
He begins to get a clue.
Still, he has lots of prayers to Mary he can recite so he begins to dutifully apply himself to those without a shrine or image to facilitate his devotions.
After all, he’s REALLY missing his Mommy’s about then.
Truble is, every time he begins to say “Mary....” there’s an ozone bearing !ZOT! dangerously close centered right in front of him.
Every time.
Being a bit of a slow learner, it takes him a week to begin his prayers, with “Lord Jesus...” or “Heavenly Father . . . “
He’s pleased to notice there’s no ZOT.
Over the first month, he discovers that any time he reaches out to God directly, he is drawn closer.
Any time he retreats into RC ritual and mumbo jumbo—he nearly gets ZOTTED.
The Pentecostal Brother has been praying merily along to God, Lord Jesus in English and in tongues all along and feeling closer to God than ever in his life.
If we were to consider the two brothers about 15 days into their isolation . . . I wonder which one would feel and be closer to God.
Which one would be more inclined to feeling like a fish out of water . . .
What would it be like for a thoroughly conditioned and entrenched RC to have to face God and God alone without a single RC distinctive, accoutrament, trinket . . . ?
What would be the emotions, the thoughts, . . . ?
What would be the real focus . . . the REAL focus . . . THEN?
And how hard would it be to focus directly, wholesale 100% totally and only
on
GOD ALONE?
I hear a chorus of ducks quacking in disagreement.
Get help.
It’s encouraging to see the intellectual integrity and honesty here.
However, FEELING something is personal does not automatically MAKE it personal.
We FEEL all kinds of things in all kinds of contexts about all kinds of stimuli.
Generally speaking, the healthier perspective is that we are responsible for our feelings and other folks are responsible for their behaviors.
Sometimes, I get the impression that some RC’s honestly believe that when a normal human being becomes and authentic RC, then that human being magically ceases to have the human tendency to idolize anything as well as ceases to have the human tendency of denial of inner facts effectively to himself.
I still keep observing RC’s who act and look like the rest of the human race on both scores.
Therefore, for me, the contention that no RC anywhere inappropriately idolizes anyone or anything but God is beyond laughable. Absurdly laughable. Yet that contention has been made repeatedly hereon.
Similarly, Prottys are expected by RC’s to believe that 100% of RC’s assessments of their own RELIGIOUS INNER worlds and psychology is 100% flawlessly perfect and 100% free of denial.
That too is absurdly laughable. I contend that RC’s are as human on both scores as Prottys are.
Yet endless pontifications on endless threads assert otherwise. Along with, from my perspective, multicolored wails and whines to the max.
Not very convincing, to say the least.
MIND-READING hate for RC’s into
my mind,
my heart,
my emotions,
is a 100% falsehood and bearing false witness.
I don’t even hate the whole edifice.
I do hate idolatry and blasphemy. Given God’s feelings about those two, I think I’m in good company.
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