Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
The question was not directed to me in this case.
I keep on stating that I am a Christian without a connection to Catholicism (in the Roman/Vatican sense), and without a connection to Protestantism (in the Geneva sense). I think Protestants can more readily understand that.
It could be argued that there is a “catholic” sense in my “ecclesiology.” But “universal” and “visible” are two words that would clash (if someone is accustomed to “Vaticanish” terminology). And it could be argued that I am “protestant” in the sense that I do certainly protest many things. I especially PROTEST being labeled either Catholic or Protestant. I PROTEST against the very idea that all who name the Lovely Name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh, the Redeemer of sinful man with the once-for-ever propitious Sacrifice of His Life's Blood, must be categorized as either a Catholic (whether it be Roman, “Orthodox, Coptic, or what have you) or Protestant (linked to Geneva).
I admit I get mad. I'm working on it improving my virtues. At least I don't have the guts to announce my faith in God, and how I am saved, then turn around and insult Catholics, say others aren't saved (I still wonder who tells them these things?), and insult God's dedicated servants, like the Pope, in the same post. That's just sick!
>>Why don’t you take the gloves off and show your real mean-spirited self?<<
Hey, My Dear FRiend, those who dish out personal nasty should expect to get it back. I’m sure you didn’t see this line from Dr. E to mgist.
>>Has the “mystery which hath been hid from the ages and from generations” “now been made manifest” to you, mgist?<<
If anyone steps over the line, it should expect to be returned.
(sorry I’m late to the party, we had no power for 20 hours)
“Why not the Patriarchs and the Prophets whose contributions were all so necessary to bring about the coming of our Lord? Truly, it could be argued that each provided a piece necessary to the whole, even as Mary did. Granted, Mary’s participation was of a more personal physical nature, but all of them were deeply altered, all were subjected to pain and ridicule, and many died in the service of our Lord.”
Perhaps the personal, physical nature of it indeed has something to do with it. The incarnational aspects of Catholicism and Orthodoxy always seem to give Protestants the willies.
And I'm thrilled that you pray the 23rd Psalm daily! What a testimony it is. "Because the Lord is my Shepherd I have everything I need."
To God be the glory!
A. Man's chief end is to glorify God,[1] and to enjoy him forever.[2]
God used to be the most important "subject" in a basic education.
So you’re a Baptist. 8~)
So you’re a Baptist. 8~)
***************************
Yes, my fine Presbyterian Brother.
Amen to your post!
Amen. Matthew 23!
If they were saved they got saved by not believing what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and by believing the true Gospel of salvation by grace alone in Christ alone.
No one is saved as a Roman Catholic, they are saved by rejecting what Catholicism teaches.
THANKS FOR YOUR KIND AFFIRMATION.
MAT 23
If this is not "some kind of argument" putting forth a position, what then is it?
Further, I don't think God intends for human beings to spend much time at all pondering the "intimate union between Jesus and Mary."
Christ certainly didn't when he rebuked those who would praise His mother and He instead directed the praise at all those who believe in Him.
In fact, to this Protestant sensibility, the veneration and kneeling and praying to and adoration and elevation of Mary is quite unseemly, to say the least.
I’m your fine Presbyterian sister. 8~)
Amen to your post! Christ put the word of God above honoring His human mother (Lk.11:27-28)
Huh??! Are you serious?
How in the world is my line to mgist...
"Has the "mystery which hath been hid from the ages and from generations" "now been made manifest" to you, mgist?"
in any way even remotely similar to her calling me a member of "Al Qaeda!?!"
Your post is laughable and reveals a true lack of perspective.
AMEN!
THX
HEAVEN AND EARH SHALL PASS AWAY. MY WORD SHALL NOT PASS AWAY —JESUS THE CHRIST THE LIVING WORD
I think that the RC edifice makes a huge mistake any time it even hints at diminishing SCRIPTURE . . . all the worse when on the one hand it diminishes emphasis on Scripture and on the other hand it emphasizes galactic jumps BEYOND inordinately things like Mary, magisterical, political power mongers and the like. There will come a time of judgment. God said judgment would begin with the house of God. A lot of the hierarchy are in some big trouble. And have been a very long time.
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