Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I will only point out that rape is not about sensual or erotic pleasure. It is about power.
That is all.
Yes, it is a bumpy road. He continually teaches and prunes us to be more like Jesus. We all get detoured sometimes, but I look at it this way, the detour comes out further ahead on that road. You’re still on it and further ahead than you were before. I don’t feel entitled. I feel blessed that Jesus died on that cross for me and that I can be with Him for all eternity because I have asked Him to come into my life and be my Lord and Saviour. Love, Maryxxx
I can respect that. I feel really blessed too. That Free Will thing kills me though, I don’t trust myself enough. When the devil tricks us into doing things that are offensive to God, like Eve, we never realize it.
For heavens sake, we might conclude he relegates non-Catholics to an inferior status. "Defective" even.
Mk 12:38-44
In the course of his teaching Jesus said, Beware of the scribes, who like to go around in long robes and accept greetings in the marketplaces, seats of honor in synagogues, and places of honor at banquets. They devour the houses of widows and, as a pretext, recite lengthy prayers. They will receive a very severe condemnation.
He sat down opposite the treasury and observed how the crowd put money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. A poor widow also came and put in two small coins worth a few cents. Calling his disciples to himself, he said to them, Amen, I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the other contributors to the treasury. For they have all contributed from their surplus wealth, but she, from her poverty, has contributed all she had, her whole livelihood.
The Holy Spirit will convict you of your sin. I can’t get away with much, LOL. Yes, I’ve often jokingly said that the free will thing was God’s only mistake!
And if, at the moment of your death, your assumptions are shown to be wrong what will you do?
In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And coming to her, he said, ,"Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you." 29 But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. 30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, 11 and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." 34 But Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?" 12 35 And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. 36 And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived 13 a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren; 37 for nothing will be impossible for God." 38 Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." THEN the angel departed from her.
,
39 During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, 40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, 42 cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb."
Thanks for your point of view. I, of course, totally disagree.
Blessings.
Oh yeah, that’s right. The AP is a wonderful source. Very reliable.
Good HTML skills.
>>Was Ratzinger referring to the bricks of the buildings that house our churches or to the people inside the buildings which make up the church?
Because for Protestants, the “church” is not a pile of cement, but a congregation of like-minded believers who know Christ to be their cornerstone.<<
LOLOL!
Not calling a Head of State by the proper name, is so DU.
>>It’s clearly a double standard, only Protestants don’t throw a fit. We simply counter Rome’s criticism and errors with Scripture.<<
Right. No fit about the word Defectve. None at all.
One of my little etymological bagatelles is that in many languages the word which is translated "Truth" has a sense involving loyalty (as in "troth")
I know the argument from etymology is not dispositive in any way. But isn't it fascinating and beguiling that there is this volitional, or even existential, connotation hovering around that thing that philosophers seek to know?
In my little kiddie religion classes (like smart fifth or sixth graders, say) I used to distinguish between boring truths, which are "knowable", like, oh, F=MA, and really important truths like, "My parents love me (or not)," about which we seem only to be able to have hunches and hopes and sometimes doubts.
And this is one of the frustrating aspects to the not even worthy to be called "debates" we have here. For example, take the debate about when the "catholic Church was started." If you already think the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, you will see the great crisis of suddenly becoming legal and even established as a fundamental breach in the continuity of the Church, so that "Real" Christianity has to so to speak, submerge for a millennium or so. On the other hand if you believe that the Catholic Church is that body in which the fullness of the esse of Church subsists, then you will see all that stuff as a crisis which set the Church back on its heels, but which it survived and which led to conditions in which it might be said to have prospered.
The data do not admit of being viewed dispassionately, and most of us tussling over them are not inclined to view them dispassionately. So when the feathers and fur settle to earth, what we mostly have as the skeleton of an "Is NOT"/"Is TOO" conversation with a few interesting new facts (maybe) added to the mix.
So you heard Mort the Wart, huh? What a guy! He gave an almost annual lecture at my college where it was traditional to play a prank on him.
When I say “you will post again,” is that a command, or a prediction?
>>Theyll find some way to discount all his or any other Catholic leaders words. They just refuse to see it. BIG deception on their part.<<
Who is they?
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