Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
According to the misguided traditions of flawed men, you mean. None of that is Biblical. 2 Timothy 3:14-17 doesn't say that, nor does any of the rest of of Scripture. It is manufactured.
What else would Jesus say and do that He already has made clear several times to several people?
[snipped out gobs of turgid prose from the Westminster Confession of Faith, so-called]
I’ll stick with the Church founded by Christ in AD 32, thank you very much. I can have your storefront plastic banana happy joy splinter group (70 years running) or the Catholic Church, founded by Christ with Peter and his successors as Pope (1970+ years running).
Easiest choice I can imagine.
ROFLMAO! Oh, my sides.
Whew! Tell me another one.
...while NO Protestant is REQUIRED to believe the WCF.
LOL Good bit of luck there, eh?
Answers what? I thought you were asking for my chain of reasoning, or where you being disingenuous?
At any rate, no, that Scripture does not answer the question. I asked if you have no need of teaching because you claim to have the mind of Christ? Yes or no?
Only the spiritual can understand the High things of God, the unspiritual wander around only thinking that they do.
Gnosticism rears its ugly head, yet again! You go on and enjoy your secret knowledge. I'll gladly take real grace rather than knowledge that puffs up.
1 Cor 2:5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
I've spent my years scouring the Bible when I was a Fundamentalist/Evangelical. It was all vanity.
Don't get me wrong. Every Christian should know the Bible. And I don't know what grace God pours out on others in Protestant Churches. But no amount of Bible study is going to definitively answer whether "tongues" are for today, or a thousand other such questions. In fact, it doesn't even tell you the importance of answering those questions.
Knowledge may make you feel better, but feeling better is not the power of God.
Grace to overcome: now THAT'S power.
I spent over twenty years enslaved to sin while running around using the Bible to prove how "saved" I was. I promise you, I availed myself of every single "formula" Bible-Christianity has to offer to overcome the sin that tormented me every day, and all of it was vanity. I knew exactly what Paul was writing about in Romans 7, wretched man that I was.
Yes, Christ released me from the body of this death, but not before I submitted myself to the Church He founded two thousand years ago, and ate His Flesh in the Holy Eucharist.
As far as I'm concerned, all the criticisms against the Catholic Church are contrivances. Jesus set me free when I did what I was told, not when I learned enough of the Bible to argue about what it was saying with others.
I bless God and thank Him for my time as a zealous Protestant, because that's how I learned the Bible. But I also learned Bible-only Christianity is like Darwinism; when you demand all evidence fit your philosophical construct, the philosophical construct is your guide, not the evidence.
Ha!
Say it ain't so...
Sorry, FRiend but I treated my mother differently than any other person.
My children treat me differently than they treat any other person.
You cannot say that Our Lord would not treat His mother differently than any other person. He would not be human if He did not.
Aha! He was man AND God! Surely His Divine aspect would not have treated His mother better than--
Oh. Nevermind...
That jumped out at me to! Right from the mouth of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Amen, Amen, Amen!
enat welcome to FR. I look forward to reading your posts.
Impressive post — I didn’t know your background before.
Sorry to butt in, but I think the point here is not how Our Lord would treat others, but how we treat God and others. Our Lord asks us to love him above all else, love others, to honor mother and father. etc. Honoring Jesus mother shouldn't be a bad thing.
What? You never read "If thou art the Son of God, cast thyself down, for it is written...etc?" Perhaps you shouldn't make too much of it.
The common denominator in all groups that deny the authority of Scripture is their desire to have that authority.
So what's the desire of those who won't submit to someone else's interpretation?
After discussing Catholicism with RCs for years now, I think I might use Ratzinger's own terminology which he used against Protestant churches to answer that question -- he is a "defective" Christian.
Just like Jesus told the Pharisees and just like Jesus told Peter. Mary/woman/”Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand TOWARD HIS DISCIPLES, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
Doing God's will was Jesus’s ONLY mother/brother/sister. Study Matthew 12:46-50 and leave your mother/son emotional EARTHLY things of men out of the assumption business.
God sent Jesus for a purpose, no EARTHLY person or emotional bond could have stood in the way. Jesus was the perfect servant of God the Father. Mary stood no chance and eventually probably understood that fact.
I doubt very much those would be Pope Benedict's words. He is a Holy man, illuminated by the Holy spirit. He would never call another Chrisitan "defective". It is your decision to listen to him or not, but for you to quote him like that is SLANDEROUS, and a little creepy.
James Ch. 4
Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you. Do not speak evil of one another, brothers. Whoever speaks evil of a brother or judges his brother speaks evil of the law and judges the law.
When did Benedict identify, specifically or generally, any Christian as “defective?”
That was not the question put to him. The question was: Is Benedict XVI a Christian?
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