Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
The doctrine of the bodily assumption is now extensively believed, and it is this doctrine which Pope Pius XI may promulgate in definite terms.
New Mary Dogma Monday, Jan. 21, 1924
You’re darn right you can’t.
I pity you.
************************************
What were you hoping I would say?
Are Catholics so blind they miss the fact the above paragraph (and the entire link) hands God's electing grace over to Mary, of all people!
It does not.
Do you not see this puts Mary in the position of determining salvation with Christ merely okaying the deal and God fascilitating it?
It does not.
...the more grateful to God I am for keeping me from such idolatry and lies.
Coincidence?
You got that exactly backwards. It isn't what "the RCC has done to Mary," it's what the so-called Reformation has done to spreads its false teachings, so that you work to dethrone the person God Himself has raised.
Good prayer, thanks.
There you go in #3584!
All our hope do we repose in the most Blessed Virgin -- in the all fair and immaculate one who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world: in her who is the glory of the prophets and apostles, the honor of the martyrs, the crown and joy of all the saints; in her who is the safest refuge and the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger; in her who, with her only-begotten Son, is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world; in her who is the most excellent glory, ornament, and impregnable stronghold of the holy Church; in her who has destroyed all heresies and snatched the faithful people and nations from all kinds of direst calamities; in her do we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers.
Ineffabilis Deus Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854)
Please note the magic words "Mediatrix and Conciliatrix".
Further note: The quote and link in this post are directly from the Catholic Encyclopedia site. (I couldn't find it on Vatican.va).
It is possible to select phrases from this quote, Google them, and find the same words on hate sites, porno sites, and more. Any pig can do that and lie about the origin. Please take note.
Reading minds again, Petronski? Tch tch.
Whose mind do you claim I was reading?
>>Are you certain my child?<<
You are so sweet, thank you!
Yes, I truly believe that I will not see this come to pass.
And so I won’t worry about what has not yet happened.
Every day, a thought crosses my mind that death will come to one of my children while I am alive. I push the thought away, trusting in the Will of Our Lord. Could it happen? Anything could happen. But Our Lord will never hand me what I cannot handle.
I’ll worry about what has already happened and let Our Lord deal with the rest.
Wow that reminds me of the libs that refuse to call George W. Bush, President.
He is a head of state, unless the poster is denying that too.
Notice she didn't say, you're cursed if you don't do as Luther's interpretation of what Jesus wants. (Forgive me God, I couldn't help myself)
As usual, you have offered an excellent post. AS for me, I never cease to be surprised when posters write that in their opinion, Catholics are not saved—if they believe in the basics of the Catholic faith. To me, that just demonstrates the attitude of the Pharisee.
>>It is possible to select phrases from this quote, Google them, and find the same words on hate sites, porno sites, and more. Any pig can do that and lie about the origin. Please take note. <<
But I have to say that I respect you highly for giving a link. A clickable link takes away any doubt from where it came!
But that's what it really means!
But that's what it really means for those who have eyes to hear and ears to see!
“What do you call a piece of wood?”
“A book”
I have been told by my boss what to expect on my first venture onto this site so do what you will, if anything, with these questions. I am a cynic by nature and training so I don’t expect much but after being shown many of your exchanges on this thread and others I am courious to know,
What do you believe is your basis for ultimate truth and how do you know it is trustworthy?
I'm fine for an old geezer.
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