Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Here’s the Scripture DV felt he was given re such:
Re: The Worship of Mary? (An Observation) [Open]
From DarthVader | 06/06/2008 11:53:59 AM PDT new
Chapter 14
1
The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah concerning the drought:
2
Judah mourns, her gates are lifeless; Her people sink down in mourning: from Jerusalem ascends a cry of anguish.
3
The nobles send their servants for water, but when they come to the cisterns They find no water and return with empty jars. Ashamed, despairing, they cover their heads
4
because of the stricken soil; Because there is no rain in the land the farmers are ashamed, they cover their heads.
5
Even the hind in the field deserts her offspring because there is no grass.
6
The wild asses stand on the bare heights, gasping for breath like jackals; Their eyes grow dim, because there is no vegetation to be seen.
7
Even though our crimes bear witness against us, take action, O LORD, for the honor of your name— Even though our rebellions are many, though we have sinned against you.
8
O Hope of Israel, O LORD, our savior in time of need! Why should you be a stranger in this land, like a traveler who has stopped but for a night?
9
Why are you like a man dumbfounded, a champion who cannot save? You are in our midst, O LORD, your name we bear: do not forsake us!
10
Thus says the LORD of this people: They so love to wander that they do not spare their feet. The LORD has no pleasure in them; now he remembers their guilt, and will punish their sins.
Thanks for the explanation.
Wise words.
Thanks.
So you're claiming once the Law DID come into place a person could ignore it and still be righteous?
Depends on the age of the picture. I value the posed pictures of my ancestors. I like candid shots if they’re clear.
Mad Dawg, that does NOT come through on Roman Catholic posts at all. She Is needed by some Catholics. They revere her, they they pray to her, etc., etc., etc. I’m not saying ALL feel that way but a good number seem to.
Me: "Show me in the bible where it says [..etc. etc...]"
Petronski: "I will not"
GOOD ONE Petronski! Way to back up your views
You never read the books? You should — they’re terrific! (C.S. Lewis said something like “any book worth reading when you’re 10 should be 5 times as much worth reading when you’re 50!”) I thought the casting on the TV series was wonderful, though after the first they strayed pretty far from the books.
>>It is coming in due time. <<
Well not in Benedict 16th time. He said no.
I’m not going to be concerned about what has not happened.
Matthew 7:6
Anyone who reads the WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH (with proofs) can readily see every word of the confession is grounded in Scripture which is provided at the link.
I enjoy reading anytime a saint declares the Scriptural truth of Christ risen.
I also enjoy the Belgic Confession and the Heidelberg Confession, both found with Scriptural proofs at REFORMED.ORG
>>Now we have Mary possessing the capability of calling the shots over God the Father. Good grief. <<
You said that, I didn’t.
I just said that you are Assuming that Jesus would handle things this way.
You are assuming, I’m not.
"And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way." -- Judges 2:19
Translation: It's not there, but sado-evangelists lack the integrity to admit such things.
No, you don't have to think that, unless you're trying to find excuses for sola scriptura worship of a "piece of wood."
Like I said, until it happens, I’m not going to worry about “May-bes” or “Could-bes”
I have to go buy a pool anyway.....
I ask God to fill me with the Holy Spirit.
And so was I. Sorry. You sounded like a newbie.
I’ll go to the Library some time. I don’t want to buy any more books! I’ve been reading The Secret Garden. I loved the movie and the book is pretty much what the movie recorded. Thanks for the suggestion. Actually, I think I did read Anne of Green Gables when I was a teenager and that was a LONG time ago. LOL.
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you.
VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]
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