Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Well yes, for instance, lots of us still waiting to learn where co-Redemptrix comes from
Now we have Mary possessing the capability of calling the shots over God the Father. Good grief.
I know what the verse says. If I say a particular piece completes the puzzle, that doesn’t mean that piece IS the complete puzzle.
Furthermore, claiming the OT teaches sola fide, and ignoring The Law isn’t even worth discussing.
You seem a lot more interested in a Co-Redemtrix than any Catholics do, you tell us because, as you have been told many times, it IS NOT a teaching of the Church.
Boss around?
Where does Catholicism claim Mary can "boss around" God?
You see the reason I doubt that is that whenever you all (or most of you) try to describer her, what you say is not at all like what I see. It's like someone calling the Rosary "vain repetition". They see the outside and it evidently doesn't occur to them that there's an inside.
That’s why we’re in this thread and others.
Your vision of the Church compels you all to come and ask us when we'll stop beating our wives and post colored posts with offensive cartoons and make up words to describe our institutions and to say untrue thing after untrue thing? Far out!
We covered all that yesterday, and there has been an active defense of it when people thought it was Latin. Now that it has been proven to be a non-sensical term, no one wants to claim it.
Abraham was counted as righteous way before the law came into place. Why? Because he trusted God.
Becky
It has not been.
L.M. Montgomery wrote the "Anne" books -- Anne of Green Gables, etc. I believe even that old reprobate Mark Twain called Anne the most delightful child in literature since Alice.
Then why don't you post for us the Lord's last recorded words to Peter and explain, in light of them, how He felt that Peter was his adversary.
God changed the names of many people in the Old Testament and with each one, their role in leading His people changed significantly. The ONLY person's name changed by God in the New Testament was Peter, why would you not believe that this was indicative of a new role.
Yes, religious, can’t you just feel the love? /Sar
As we keep on saying and you all keep on ignoring (must be part of the "drive them nuts" thing), we agree. We don't NEED Mary. We're mighty glad to have her though.
Perhaps thin-skinned poster(s) on this thread have been too busy manufacturing false “stalking” charges to read the material at this link, posted yesterday:
http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/coredemptrix.html
Are you unaware that the official language of the Catholic Church is Latin?
By assuming if Mary called Jesus down from the cross (If you have been following this exchange) and Jesus insisting He must in relation to “honoring Mother/Father” Mary could subvert the will of God the Father.
Not consistent with the MAIN reason Jesus came down from Heaven in the first place. I.E. Jesus would have rebuked Mary like Peter (John 16 22-23)
On and on and on these words will be paraded in front of you. When the Vatican believes the time is right it will act and you will have your Co-Redeemer.
We are also bound to dedicate hours of study to deepening our understanding of the mysteries of the Immaculate Conception, particularly her role as Coredemptrix with Christ and her universal mediation. The perfume of Marian prayer is the fragrant incense that rises continually before the throne of God particularly the prayer of the Holy Rosary, Litany of Loreto, novena prayers of preparation for Marian feasts as well as countless spiritual communions and acts of love.
Approved by the Vatican
It is coming in due time.
Here's a short description from the petition submitted to the Pope: When the Church invokes Mary under the title, "Coredemptrix", she means that Mary uniquely participated in the redemption of the human family by Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour. At the Annunciation (cf.Lk.1:38) Mary freely cooperated in giving the Second Person of the Trinity his human body which is the very instrument of redemption, as Scripture tells us: "We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Heb.10:10).
And at the foot of the cross of our Saviour (Jn.19:26), Mary's intense sufferings, united with those of her Son, as Pope John Paul II tells us, were, "also a contribution to the Redemption of us all" (Salvifici Doloris, n.25). Because of this intimate sharing in the redemption accomplished by the Lord, the Mother of the Redeemer is uniquely and rightly referred to by Pope John Paul II and the Church as the "Coredemptrix."
It is important to note that the prefix "co" in the title Coredemptrix does not mean "equal to" but rather "with", coming from the Latin word cum. The Marian title Coredemptrix never places Mary on a level of equality with her Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Rather it refers to Mary's unique human participation which is completely secondary and subordinate to the redeeming role of Jesus, who alone is true God and true Man.
Again if it was a Latin term it would read “cum Redemptor”. It’s “co -Redemptrix”. Maybe the second one is pig-latin
Vitamins?
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