Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Post #3139 = boilerplate [note to self]
Before you even say it, I know you will say “It doesn’t say I can’t pray to other than God”. To that I can only say God says how to pray, why are you looking for wiggle room to do something different.
= = =
INDEED.
Sometimes, I think the RC edifice is an institution built on wiggle room.
Mary is not dead, unless you don’t believe in eternal life.
And you and your loved ones, Dear Heart.
And deliver your son from Ba’Hai. Health and wholeness to you.
LOL. Your derision of God’s Holy Word will get you nowhere, you or other RC’s who hate sola scripture. Your church father’s writings may even lead you astray. Too bad.
Gag.
Shocking.
I daresay your bible is missing seven books.
I know many saved Catholics. But most of them left the church. Some stayed, but most left.
Ya know—that’s a good point. I hadn’t thought of that. I think I know a good deal more former RC’s than I know current RC’s.
Interesting.
Cooperate, to participate in, to bring about in tandem, to work together...
Doesn't it ever occur to Catholics that when they are forced to appeal to the dictionary for every word they use in order to be understood, and yet still their sentences turn the glory of God away from Him and toward the creature, that there is something seriously wrong with their exegesis?
From the RCC catechism...
1172 She (Mary) is inseparably linked with the saving work of her Son.
Blasphemy.
Mary most certainly is separate from Christ's saving work on the cross. Mary does not "cooperate" in men's salvation. Mary has nothing to do with men's salvation. Mary does not share the work of redeeming His flock with Jesus. Mary is not on the cross with Jesus. Mary was a fallen sinner who needed saving exactly as you and I in exactly the same way.
More deflection from the RC catechism...
494 Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.
And now the RCC will tell us "cause" does not really mean to "personally bring about" or "to be responsible for" or "to effectuate," because if the RCC admitted what words really mean, their blasphemy would be staring them in the face.
Read your Bible.
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." -- Acts 4:12
You might find this interesting: http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/truedevo.htm
What each of us “know” has really no bearing on the whole thing, does it?
= = =
In my experience, that depends on a lot of factors.
There’s dead religion in every Christian club and congregation.
Quite personal mindreading.
Shocking.
I know! Yet I have to keep reading. It's like when you know something rotton in the fridge is going to stink, but you have to smell it anyway.
Exactly. You get that feeling in these debates, every possible soft interpretation is used, every possible missing instruction is taken advantage of. And then things like "full of grace" are turned into:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/truedevo.htm
It could only be called blasphemy by someone who thinks she did not have the free will to say 'no.' That position, of course, makes Mary a broodmare and the Holy Spirit a rapist.
THAT is the real blasphemy here.
Fascinating.
All I’m assuming is that those who are posting the truth on these threads are saved. Catholics, I pray they are. Am I sure, no. There are soooo many differences in our beliefs. It’s stunning. If you depend on baptism, Mary, the Pope, the Eucharist, no, you probably aren’t saved. If your faith is in Jesus Christ and Him only, you are.
The belief is that the Annunciation is not the moment when Mary consented to bring our Savior into the world, but rather that the Annunciation was the moment when Mary was told what was about to be done to her (consent or not).
THAT is rape.
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