Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
And WHAT, pray tell, is that ‘piece of wood?’
>>Well, we should pray to Jesus...and we can ask for prayers from Christians on earth. We are told to pray for each other. <<
So where is the Bible verse that says that we should not ask those in heaven to pray for us?
Because opinion is opinion. Fact is fact. My opinion is different than yours.
No trouble at all....Read from Gen. 1.1 To Rev. 22:21.
Do you have a verse that shows someone receiving help from prayer to Mary or any of the other saint that was in heaven at the time of the prayer? Do you have a verse where anyone prayed to a dead person?
Becky
It doesn’t say we are NOT to ask for those in heaven to pray for us, it also never says we should. It does say to pray to God thru Christ. So, IMO, that is what we should do, anything else is ADDING to scripture, something I’m not comfortable doing.
Becky
No, he wouldn’t. His mission was the cross and our redemption.
>>No trouble at all....Read from Gen. 1.1 To Rev. 22:21.<<
Well, I could pop up some numbers too. Where? Give us the citation.
I’ll have to tell my hubby and former pastor that. LOL.
>>It does say to pray to God thru Christ.<<
And that’s what Catholics do. What makes you think otherwise?
He said he’d stop reading your posts. As Martha Stewart would say, “That’s a good thing.” Then you don’t need to respond to his response...
When John the Baptist was face to face with Jesus he could pray for those who asked him to, I agree.
IMO:), if people who were taken to heaven could be asked for prayer too, we would have seen it happen in scripture. All prayer in scripture was to God.
Becky
They can pray all they want to Mary. She can’t answer them.
Quoting you:
‘No air or light can get into a closed mind. The next thing they’ll do is look up “co-” in another 10 dictionaries, going all the way back to 1838 or whenever.
‘They are obsessed, and we all know that obsessed people cannot see or hear anything outside their obsession. Talk about your vain repetition!’
= = =
My reply:
“Hmmmm ...”
You go right TO Jesus. You don’t need a mediator between you and Jesus.
I don’t think otherwise.
But by Catholics own admission they ALSO ask dead people to pray for them. That’s the problem I have with the Catholic belief. I don’t believe we should. I don’t see anywhere in scripture where the practice was done, therefore, I don’t believe we should.
Becky
I have a question...when you ask Mary for help, do you consider that “prayer” to Mary?
What is your definition of prayer?
Becky
Your opinion was never in question here. What the Bible says is the issue, and this verse says nothing more than Scripture is required for completion. It does NOT say Scripture accomplishes completion all by itself, nor does it say how much Scripture Paul was referring to as "all."
How could the man of God be complete before all of Scripture, as we count it, was codified at the time Paul wrote this admonition?
>>But by Catholics own admission they ALSO ask dead people to pray for them<<
All who follow Our Lord’s commandments are promised “Eternal Life” That means eternal, forever.
So we don’t ask “dead” people anything. We ask those who no longer have Earthly bodies to pray with and for us.
“Eternal Life” doesn’t stop when we no longer have DNA.
Oh, yeah, that makes sense.LOL.
prayer 1 (prâr)n.
1.
a. A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship.
b. The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.
2. An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving: One evening a week, the family would join together in prayer.
3. A specially worded form used to address God, a god, or another object of worship.
4. prayers A religious observance in which praying predominates: morning prayers.
5.
a. A fervent request: Her prayer for rain was granted at last.
b. The thing requested: His safe arrival was their only prayer.
6. The slightest chance or hope: In a storm the mountain climbers won’t have a prayer.
7. Law
a. The request of a complainant, as stated in a complaint or in equity, that the court grant the aid or relief solicited.
b. The section of the complaint or bill that contains this request.
I’ll say number 5, a and b.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.