Such foolish talk...
Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
>>This needs to be read by some of the Catholics who have posted to us. Some of the Catholics themselves have tried to do the super-elevation. We didn’t pull the expression “Co-Redemptrix” out of our own bag of words.<<
Well, the quote is there to repost.
As with any group, people have different opinions. They are allowed their opinions, but not allowed to say they are dogma, because they are not.
We have what we call a “Priestly Gesture” of using the orans (hands extended) position. It is directed by the Vatican in the “General Instruction of the Roman Missal” (the guide to what everyone can do in the mass) that this is to be used only by a priest. Some people love it as a prayer posture and use it while saying the “Our Father” in the mass because the priest does. They use the explaination that “it doesn’t say we can’t” but that is not how this document works. It tells what will be done and never what can’t, because it can’t be inclusive of everything (what if I want to BBQ in the choir loft?).
So, many times there are things that Catholics say that may not be correct. We need to correct with love.
And adding to that, not everyone is as informed as the FReepers. Life sometimes gets in the way of knowing what we should. Not to say that this is right, just that it happens.
We have to understand that someone may say something. It doesn’t make it so.
You can ping me if you see this again. I’ve saved the quote on my homepage and sometimes Catholic to Catholic may be a softer correction.
Why can't you produce just one verse. Why do you fight so hard to preserve a doctrine that is so obviously unbiblical.
Amen. And we don’t pray to the Holy Spirit. It’s not his job to answer prayers either. He guides us to the Father and the Son.
I loved the Anne series on TV, Anne of Avonlea, Anne of Green Gables. Great shows.
Uh, yeah.
2Tim. 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
IMO, this is clearly saying following the bible's instruction is all we need to please God. I mean, what's better then perfect?:)
Becky
>>The question is can any Christian in heaven help at all for a Christian/lost person on earth. IMO, no they can’t. The bible clearly states Jesus is the only help we have, so should be the only one we turn to.<<
So why ask people to pray with us at all.
Why bother?
How about you save the faux analysis, and stick with issues that don't depend on your subjective assessment ... like the Bible.
*****************
And yet we still say the Lord's Prayer/Pater Noster.
Our Father, who art in Heaven,
hallowed be Thy name,
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation
but deliver us from evil.
Amen
Not nice. Very personal.
LOL...yes they do:).
I did/do understand the discussion about "cooperate", but to me it is a bit pointless if the parties that are being discussed couldn't cooperate anyway.
Mary is in heaven...Can she cooperate? It isn't a matter of she would if she could, it's that she can't anyway. IMO, she cannot pray for us even if we ask her too. Do people in heaven pray? IMO, not as those on earth do. They cannot hear our prayers too them. IMO, people in heaven are doing nothing but worshipping, praising and thanking God.
Becky
What’s the difference between a grown-p and a young-p?
Then you should have no trouble producing a verse that says so.
Becky
I think she means Anne of Green Gables and Anne of Avonlea. They’re old classics made into television series. I enjoyed the series, taken place on Prince Edward Island. Good family shows.
So, YOU can call something "foolish," but Petronski cannot? Isn't that just a bit hyocritical?
Such foolish talk...
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