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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; rcc; romancatholic
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To: netmilsmom; 1000 silverlings
Well it wasn’t the Vatican so perhaps you can ask that Catholic?

Well it was the Vatican and one of the Catholics is Cardinal Law, late of Boston Scandal fame.
2,921 posted on 06/05/2008 7:38:41 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: papertyger

CHRIST SAID

MY SHEEP KNOW MY VOICE.


I’ve found He knows what He’s talking about.


2,922 posted on 06/05/2008 7:41:00 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: OLD REGGIE

The Vatican News Service reports on earthquakes. Do you claim the Catholic Church approves of earthquakes?

The Vatican has many documents regarding abortion. Do you claim the Catholic Church approves of abortion?


2,923 posted on 06/05/2008 7:41:12 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski; All
Matthew Chapter 7

1 1 2 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged.

2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. 3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Which one of you would hand his son a stone when he asks for a loaf of bread, or a snake when he asks for a fish? If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good things to those who ask him. "Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets. "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.

I love you all, YSIC, a Catholic

2,924 posted on 06/05/2008 7:41:45 PM PDT by mgist (Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hear)
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To: Petronski

Agreed. What, after all, are we likely to learn from someone shouting at us or insulting us?

Christlike charity? ROFL!


2,925 posted on 06/05/2008 7:42:24 PM PDT by Judith Anne (I love all Protestants, and pray that Mary will soften their hearts and open their eyes to the truth)
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To: Mad Dawg

So are lying and sewing dissension fruits of the Spirit?

= =

Some would ask the same of some RC’s.


2,926 posted on 06/05/2008 7:42:47 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix

That’s not an answer.


2,927 posted on 06/05/2008 7:43:30 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Mad Dawg
Yes. It is correct. To be in heaven is to be in the Church. To be in the Church, is to be subject, to the extent applicable, to the Roman Pontiff.

References please. OFFICIAL ones.
2,928 posted on 06/05/2008 7:43:56 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

I’m sorry, FRiend, I can’t speak for Cardinal Law. But I can give you this link to a news story talking about the co-redemptrix title. It’s 1997. JPII never did it.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-19633321.html

Now I know that putting every Catholic into the word “Vatican” is easy, but really unless the Vatican says it is so, not someone who spent the night at the Vatican, it isn’t so.


2,929 posted on 06/05/2008 7:44:59 PM PDT by netmilsmom (I am Iron Mom. (but really made from Gold plated titanium))
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To: OLD REGGIE
References please. OFFICIAL ones.

Physician, heal thyself

LOL

2,930 posted on 06/05/2008 7:45:02 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: papertyger

The truth can hurt for all of us.

Doesn’t make it hate.


2,931 posted on 06/05/2008 7:46:35 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: mgist

This is easier to read:

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that you may not be judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he shall ask him a fish, will he reach him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?
Mat 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.
Mat 7:14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

YBIC, p

DV


2,932 posted on 06/05/2008 7:49:21 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Finally, nowhere in Protestant literature is there anything even remotely like the edicts of the Council of Trent which loudly and with great finality and clarity of purpose curse to hell all those who believe in the Biblical truth of their justification by faith alone in Christ alone and who have confidence in that fact.

No one possess the hubris of Rome. None.

= = =

Overwhelmingly true.

—Biblically true
—Historically true
—Evidence-wise true
—Experientially true.


2,933 posted on 06/05/2008 7:49:22 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix
The truth can hurt for all of us.

Irrelevant to the hate at issue here.

2,934 posted on 06/05/2008 7:50:43 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Some folks keep trying to make me Pope

of that fantasized non-existent band.


2,935 posted on 06/05/2008 7:51:20 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: maryz
I don't know why you included me here -- I wasn't in that particular discussion. On your other question though (as if L.M. Montgomery weren't enough!) -- this guy's against the practice (as well as other accepted ones), but attests that it goes on:

Please see #2531. You were the primary addressee.

Now it's my turn. I have no idea what you are talking about here.

2,936 posted on 06/05/2008 7:52:59 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Petronski

Not at all.

Scripture exhorts us to warn a brother falling into error.


2,937 posted on 06/05/2008 7:54:10 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: papertyger; Alex Murphy; alpha-8-25-02; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; Forest Keeper; ...

hmmmmm

So . . . “sado-evangelism”— phrase slingers . . . accusers-of-the-bretheren

would be . . . those who falsely accuse others of ‘sado-evangelism’ . . . I guess.


2,938 posted on 06/05/2008 7:56:18 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix

And it commands against lies.


2,939 posted on 06/05/2008 7:56:54 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: papertyger; Alex Murphy; alpha-8-25-02; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; Forest Keeper; ...

And we do realize that

in the daffynitions of the RC edifice

“abuse” = anything an RC finds uncomfortable from a Protty.


2,940 posted on 06/05/2008 7:57:09 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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