Not personal.
Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Ah, yes, I’m just feelin’ it too. LOL.
Awwwww. Poor baby.
>>So the Catholic definition of “consulting” doesn’t include “praying to” now?<<
No one’s does! Let’s look at the definiton of consult
con·sult (kn-slt)
v. con·sult·ed, con·sult·ing, con·sults
v.tr.
1.
a. To seek advice or information of: consult an attorney.
b. To refer to: consulted a telephone directory for the number.
2. To take into account; consider: consult one’s checkbook before making a major purchase.
v.intr.
1. To exchange views; confer.
2. To work or serve as a consultant: a retired executive who consults for several large companies.
n. (kn-slt, knslt)
A consultation, especially one involving physicians.
I’m not seeing where asking someone to pray with you = consult. Notice how all definitions include information coming BACK to the one consulting. The Saints don’t talk to us. Only the success of the prayer gives us the results
I’m always happy to make you laugh, Petronski. It’s my role in life.
It wasn’t actually funny. Sad mostly.
Martin Luther on the Mother of God
A Lutheran acquaintance recently pointed out to me the great veneration that Martin Luther had for the Blessed Virgin Mary throughout his life. Luther believed that the Theotokos remained a Virgin always: “Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . ‘brothers’ really means ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.” (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39).
Luther also called Mary the “Mother of God:” “God says . . .’Mary’s Son is My only Son.’ Thus Mary is the Mother of God. (ibid.)
“God did not derive his Divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary’s Son, and that Mary is God’s Mother . . . She is the true Mother of God and Bearer of God . . . Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God etc.
” For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two Christs . . .just as your son is not two sons . . . even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone.” (On the Councils and the Church, 1539).
Martin Luther also had this to say about the veneration of the Theotokos: “The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.” (Sermon, September 1, 1522).
“She is the highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom and holiness personified. We can never honour her enough.” (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).
And what, according to Luther, is the relation of the Theotokos to us? “It is the consolation and superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his Mother, Christ is his Brother, God is his Father. (Sermon, Christmas, 1522).
“Our prayer should include the Mother of God . . . What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: ‘Hail Mary, full of Grace, The Lord is with Thee, Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!” You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honour. We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her . . .(Personal Prayer Book, 1522).
John Calvin and other Protestant Reformers also maintained that the Virgin Mary is “Mother of God.” A number even included the “Hail Mary” prayer at the beginning of their liturgies. A number of Lutheran theologians after Luther himself continued to use prayer beads to count both the Our Father and the Hail Mary prayers.
From an Orthodox site here.....
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/luther.htm
It was my purpose to disabuse you of the notion I had quoted from your previous post:
The language offends them, and they prize their offence over any attempts to explain or to provide context.
It is not that we 'prize our offense', but that your proofs are, and will always be, insufficient in your attempt to dislodge that which is certainly true: That Christ alone redeems us, and that no other shares in His glory.
(A view which Colossians 1:24 might lead one to question, by the way.)
Please do tell:
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
(e-Sword: KJV)
it's about "driving them nuts".
Not at all... That's just a bonus.
What’s the name of it?
I don’t remember quoting that last line in my post. Hmm.
Not personal.
Ah, there’s lots of sadness on these posts.
When you find a reference in the NT where Jesus spread jelly on it for the religious rulers 2000 years ago, PLEASE, ping me!
“It is not that we ‘prize our offense’, but that your proofs are, and will always be, insufficient in your attempt to dislodge that which is certainly true: That Christ alone redeems us, and that no other shares in His glory.”
The “prize their offence” line was mine, not someone else’s.
To sum up, if I understand you, then, no part of the Body of Christ has any share in Christ’s glory?
Did you sign it? I didn't sign it. :D
Greets to you Quix! Glad to see you back!
The Rel Forum is so fascinating . . .
over the years . . . there are folks like the fierce RC’s.
There are folks like you . . . dear hearts working to build bridges and understanding but still with admirable strong convictions.
And there are a lot of mostly silent folks.
Occasionally I hear from a silent RC either in FREEPMAIL or on a thread . . . and I find myself pleasantly shocked that they have detected the love regardless. That’s always enormously comforting regardless of how surprising.
It’s also interesting how when I go through periods of greatly moderating the fierce kind of posting . . . how many notice and how many don’t.
People are so funny, all of us.
That is true, and to the point that those who win reward by their works will inevitably throw their crowns at Jesus' feet. None deserve any glory but Christ.
I think it was the two of us who were talking about anti-Catholicism and whether it was basically a tenet of some Protestant Churches. It brought up more old memories.
When I was young we used to go visit my mother’s family in the summer and stay a couple of months. When I was about six, I was hanging out with the adults and my Baptist uncle started in on Catholics and how they were going to hell and all the stuff that is said on FR. I later asked my dad why he allowed him to say such things, why he didn’t argue with him? My father’s answer was that my uncle was too ignorant and it wouldn’t help anything to argue with him.
I wasn’t Catholic, but I had a lot of Catholic friends and I wanted to defend their faith even though I knew little of it.
It is little memories like this that assure me again that I was meant to be a Catholic.
Your tenacious Holy Spirit wisdom is so impressive time after time. I love your spunk. You have more on dialysis than a lot of totally healthy people do.
PRAISE GOD.
This has beem a miracle for me. Now the only concern is, for a high myope like myself, the risk of sudden blindness from retinal detachment. So far, so good.
You are in my prayers. May the Lord bless you with good eyesight till the end of your days on this earth.
I really was past the age where any surgeon wanted to fool with my eyes. :)
You are right, btw, and thanks for the correction. :)
When I had replied, I had included both yourself and Mad Dawg. When he (Mad Dawg) replied to me the next day, I assumed the post had been his. Sorry for the false attribution.
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