Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Is the co-pilot equal to the pilot?
Sorry Philo, THAT cock-pit is a single seater...
Are we not all one in the Body of Christ?
But your dodging of the question is noted as a concession that co-actors can be explicitly subordinate, the way anyone saved co-operates [that prefix again!] with God’s grace.
We are all members of the Body...There is only ONE Head...There is not a co-Head (except in some twisted, perverted minds of some religionists)...
Fine. How does that stop us from being co-operators in Christ’s sacrifice—as we make up what is lacking?
I don't co-operate with God's Grace...That term was invented by your church...It means nothing...
Your church refuses to use the term, explicitly subordinate...You're trying to cover for your pope...He won't officially commit himself to claim Mary as a co-anything is subordinate...Co in itself doesn't mean subordinate...
That's not what the verse says...There is nothing lacking in the Sacrifice Jesus provided...We don't do a thing to help Jesus out...
Who made you pope?
The Wedding at Cana clearly illustrates how our Lord's Mother supports Jesus and guides God's children to obey him.
Revelations does prophecy Our Lady as a Queen.
Revelations 12:1
1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman 2 clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. 3 3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, 4 with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. 4 Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. 5 Her child was caught up to God and his throne. 6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days. 6
Crown is usually a symbol of royalty, leadership perhaps a queen? What is so hard to understand about a good, Jewish mother, who became our spiritual mother, and a role model for all of us. Some people venerate Shaquille O'Neil, we venerate Jesus' mother. She was a true part of Jesus, she is a great role model, and she helps us obey Jesus. She is such a great gift that God gave us.
That's where they got you guys duped...You don't have to be a pope to read and know what God says...In fact, it helps if you're not...
Crown is usually a symbol of royalty, leadership perhaps a queen?
This woman is NOT Mary...Why do you people refuse to study the scriptures???
The woman is Israel...The twelve stars of the crown are the twelve tribes of Israel...
What is so hard to understand about a good, Jewish mother, who became our spiritual mother, and a role model for all of us.
Because it's a fantasy...A fabrication...Just like the story of the crown on the woman's head...
Actually, it would just be alright if Catholics would just come out with it and say something like, “Okay, we do believe that no person can be saved and go to heaven without going through Mary, so you non-Catholics need to repent and appeal to Mary for salvation (among other Catholic church requirement). If you don’t you can only expect to spend eternity in Hell.”
The spiritual dimension(SD) is hard to get around..
Many... explaining it away confuse themselves, I believe..
The SD could complete Quantum Mechanics.. and further explain Reletivity..
Maybe its the link between the miroscopic and telescopic Universe..
Why would Catholics "come out and say" something so demonstrably non-Catholic?
Anyone who believes that quote represents what Catholics secretly believed should seek professional help.
The twisted perverted minds in this are the ones insisting that Catholicism teaches something that Catholicism does not teach.
Each of the vicious anti-Catholic iconoclasts has made himself his own pope of his own YOPIOS church.
Anyone who disagrees with your own personal interpretation of Scripture "refuses to study" Scriptures?
LOL
Riiiiight.
Truly, as long as science operates under "methodological naturalism" it will never even ask the right questions.
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