Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
My sister was in one of those huge prosperity based religions and she started rocking the boat. She wanted to help the poor, well, that didn’t come off well and she started getting ostracized.
On Valentine’s day her house burned to the ground and they pretty much told her the same thing. God’s vengeance and displeasure.
The funny thing was is the reason they couldn’t/wouldn’t start a ministry for the poor is that they had gotten way over their heads in debt and were just trying to make it from week to week.
She and her husband are looking for a place to live and neither of them want to live in the Bible Belt any longer, they think the people are meaner than more secular places.
I’m certainly praying for her to find a faith home and I did tell her to study “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth”.
No, they don't know. They don't care either. They skimmed just enough to know it's a Catholic word which we "need" so they know it's blasphemous and whatnot — except for maybe they do know but they're just on another "Drive them nuts" kick.
???
But we're so often told that Catholics do not pray to Mary, and yet here you are, doing just that.
In fact, even your tag makes that grave error...
"(I love all Protestants, and pray that Mary will soften their hearts and open their eyes to the truth)"
Praying to Mary to soften Protestant hearts? The Bible tells us that is the work and office and responsibility and joy of the Holy Spirit to do exactly that. And yet here you are giving over the work of the Holy Spirit to Mary, a now-deceased creature who was just as fallen as you and me.
Nowhere in Scripture are we told to pray to anyone other than the Triune God alone.
And here you are praying for Mary to fulfill the purpose of the Holy Spirit.
Incredible. Read the Bible and learn the truth.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God... For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." -- 1 Corinthians 2:10-12;16
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." -- 1 John 4:13-15"But God hath revealed them unto us by his spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Years ago I read that as much as anything else he did or wrote, Calvin re-asserted the truth of the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christ's flock which had been all but extinguished by the RCC. Sadly, after years on this forum, it's clear that same obscuring and nullifying of the work of the Holy Spirit continues on through the teachings of Rome to this day.
I’m curious, do you reject Martin Luther’s “95 Theses”?
I think she was responding to the quote Petronski copied from Dr. E and did not ping her too.
Note to self: try posting with your eyes open. The part in quotes was spozed to be your query about whether they know what “Vicar” means”
I’m so impatient. In adoration I ask Jesus, why and mostly ask that my heart remain right because I am just human and to love some of these people truly, is begging for the Supernatural Love of God.
Why don’t you pick one of the 95 and ask me about it?
Clearly.
Did you know that "pray" also means "to ask?"
v., prayed, pray·ing, prays.
v.intr.
1. To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
2. To make a fervent request or entreaty.
v.tr.
1. To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
2. To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
3. To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.
4. To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.
[Middle English preien, from Old French preier, from Latin precārī, from precē, pl. of *prex, prayer.]
You accept some and reject others?
Do they think St. Peter and St. Paul are in hell?
No doubt some of the 95 theses aren’t sufficiently anti-Catholic to sate the appetites of the disciples of Machen.
Well, Luther clearly calls the Blessed Virgin Mary the Mother of God and throughout the document he acknowledges that Peter was the first pope.
Ummmm, know your family tree?
Well, Peter and Paul were Catholic, so no doubt there are some who will tell us they are in Hell. The first Pope especially!
I meant to add, you could always do it again until you find a verse that fits better. LOL
Were in Scripture are we told not to pray to anyone other than God?
I have no idea, a day or so ago it was indicated that the Blessed Mother may or may not be in Heaven.
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