Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
My church does not condone any of those errors.
But if it came down to having to choose between attending a church that ordains women or one that misunderstands the reason for our very salvation by Christ's justification, then I would happily choose the former.
misunderstood declarations of the Council of Trent.
LOLOL. Catholics are always "misunderstood." Even when the words they speak are shown to be in error by comparing them to the words of God.
"Another Christ." "Co-Redeemer." "Baptismal regeneration." "Purgatory." "Limbo." "Queen of Heaven." "Confessinal booth." "Penance."
The list is endless and seems to grow longer each day.
And I know the Gospel and Christ's church are not being preached because of Rome, but in spite of Rome.
Then why were to told to leave the policing to them...in all caps!
Few of those things mean what you have claimed they mean, one of them is not even a teaching of the Catholic Church, and none of them is in error.
Sola scriptura and sola fide are grave errors burdening you and your whole plastic banana storefront happy splinter fun group.
Perhaps not, do other Protestant denominations?
But if it came down to having to choose between attending a church that ordains women or one that misunderstands the reason for our very salvation by Christ's justification, then I would happily choose the former.
So, you will openly embrace what is unbiblical rather than consider that the Catholic Church might just be right?
Catholics are always "misunderstood." Even when the words they speak are shown to be in error by comparing them to the words of God.
The fact that you have SAID something, DOES NOT mean that we have been shown anything.
"Another Christ." "Co-Redeemer." "Baptismal regeneration." "Purgatory." "Limbo." "Queen of Heaven." "Confessinal booth." "Penance."
The list is endless and seems to grow longer each day.
I laughed so hard at your made up "another Christ" that I didn't even bother with the rest of the list.
Well, I can sure sense a lot of spite for the Catholic Church.
Which being translated is, "I didn't read it, but here's what it says.."
You wrote it so you explain it
One who abuses reluctant targets of their evangelistic efforts.
There you go again, distorting our beliefs into half truths, to suit some ugly illusions. We have only ONE Christ. We have only ONE Savior. Our Lady serves her son, she leads people to Jesus. The same way we are called to do. We are called to serve him and love others. Our Lady happens to have done a good job at it. That is why we honor her. May God forgive you for slandering His church the way you do.
I won’t speak for Mad Dawg, but to me it refers to the tendency of some to attempt to evangelize Catholics through anger, vitriol and abuse.
Kinda obvious on its face, eh?
Empirical evidence not good enough for you ;o)
So, a copilot might have 20 fewer hours in the cockpit than the pilot, and has but to take three days of flight simulator evaluation required to make captain. (I know such a case exactly at Philippine Airlines). But there is a practical equality in skill, otherwise, the man could not be the copilot, because he would at any moment be required to act EXACTLY at CAPTAIN skill-level if the captain has a heart attack during the flight.
So, the real issue that we are interested in is this. How many hours less does Mary have on a Cross dying for anyone's sins than the Savior?
How many hours did Mary spend in the heart of the earth?
Was Mary the Firstfruits of them that slept, being the first man (it had to be an “Adam”; it couldn't be an "Eve") ever to rise from among the dead without the possibility of ever dying again.
In what particulars of Redemption can Mary's skills, qualities, attributes or power come close enough to those of the Lord Jesus Christ, to make the pilot — copilot differences a reasonable analogy?
"We love you, but we hate everything you believe in. And don't bother defending your beliefs, because we don't really listen (otherwise we would have gotten it the first thousand or so times it was explained)."
But since you say you don’t read the psycho-babble, why should I type it? Is this like the “drive them nuts” strategy? A rope-a-dope where you guys ask us to give explanations which you don’t read?
And the proponents of its adoption specifically state that "co-" is in the sense of the Latin cum, meaning with--NOT "equal to."
I'm curious, do you know longer believe the Pope is the anti-Christ or do you still believe it and just not publicly acknowledge it?
I was never given a direct answer on that, despite several requests. I can certainly understand why one might be ashamed to speak of such a belief.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.