Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
So, you don’t believe the passage from Luke? It seems to me that Christ was very clear....
Confession is good for the soul.
Thanks for the affirmation of objective reality.
Sadly, I haven’t seen tons of evidence that some folks think objective reality is properly in the same universe with the RC edifice.
20:27 Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,
So Jesus is confirming that there is or will be, resurrection.
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
“...unwitting RC’s who may not be that Biblically knowledgeable and/or not that used to thinking things through.”
If that’s how you think of us, how do YOU interpret that passage from Luke?
>>I happen to like the extra help from Mother Mary, if you are perfect without her, God bless you. <<
Oh I’m far from perfect!
And I agree with you fully.
But actually, even being Catholic, we are not required to believe in any of the apparitions and I know people who don’t. Whatever floats their boat. Not as much in the parish that I am now but in my last, many people didn’t believe in apparitions.
Go figure.
I can almost guarantee you are quoting Old Testament. With Jesus we have a new covenant with God. In the old days pagan people practiced things similar to the Oija, Santeria, Tarot Reading etc. These are HIGHLY offensive to God.
On the other hand, Angels are real, God's entire kingdom is real, if we call on God's servants to help us, in the name of God, that is very different that practicing a séance(SP?), for example.
I understand you point. God's kingdom is love, the other "world" is not. Santeria is practiced to this day, it is definitely offensive to God. Those poor people don't realize it.
It is a problem in the Catholic church, when third world countries were converted, many people maintained their "traditions" and mixed them with Catholisim. Only God's love and mercy will help them change their ways.
We have to pray for them, not curse them.
Yes, but in Luke Christ says the “dead” are like angels...?
>>So, you don’t believe the passage from Luke? It seems to me that Christ was very clear....<<
I think it’s pretty clear.
I just don’t see any prottie interpretation of that passage from Luke....
Would you be able to explain to me
how RC’s . . . bright, objective, fair-minded RC’s . . . I’m told there are some somewhere and I’m inclined to believe it as I’ve known some . . .
How on earth do bright fair-minded RC’s
objectively
tell the difference between
1. a true Heavenly visitation/manifestation
vs
2. a carefully crafted super far advanced technologically staged hoax foisted on the world by other dimensional critters or even ET’s?
Even Scripture warns about angels of light preaching any other ‘gospel.’
Christ didn’t mince any words, did He?
Well all that means is that they are now spirits. As to whether or not they are resurrected at this moment, it doesn’t say. What constitutes being “present with the Lord”, I don’t know. Other scripture asserts that “the dead know nothing”.
INDEED.
BTW, got it saved on my 8 gig flash drive with the file of other interesting posts from the Rel Forum.
I can understand people who don’t believe in apparitions. That’s OK. My curiosity got the best of me. The messages are amazing. There is NO doubt, to me, that God is there. I happen to have a hunger for God. What a blessing.
>>We have to pray for them, not curse them.<<
You are the first person I have ever seen say this!
Good for you and Amen!
Mary is not dead.
Not that I can see!
I don’t have any difficulty believing that you understand that well, Dear Heart.
However, I’m not a blind idiot. It doesn’t take a psychologist to detect dripping bitterness and hate toward individuals. The denial of that on the one hand coupled with absolutely incorrect allegations that Prottys hate individual RC’s . . .
is more than a little much.
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