Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I believe in one God, The Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father. By whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And became incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary: and was made man. He was also crucified for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried. And on the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, and who spoke through the prophets. And one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I await the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
(trying to think ..unaccustomed activity for me ...)
Yes. I think some hate Catholicism. I think some find Catholicism a fit target for general object free hate rolling around inside them In another situation they'd find something else to hate. I think some just are freaked out by Catholics as well as Catholicism. I mean they must do weird stuff with their beads and patent leather shoes and nuns and everything. (This is when we converts who did NOT grow up in RC culture have a kind of advantage. We can just say,"I don't know anything about that. The only nun I ever knew was cool."
But I think some hate us, plain and simple. I mean if somebody belittles one's opinions either sort of straightforwardly by laughing it at it and delivering not reasoned arguments but putdowns, or indirectly by pretending it was never uttered, ignoring both fact and reason and always repeating the same old attacks de novo, then you can be pretty sure that person doesn't care about persuasion or about the feelings of the person s/he's talking to. And further we have indications that some set out to irritate and hve no interest in the Truth as such.
Hmm. Maybe contempt would be a more precise word.
And I'll still assert that in a few cases it's an illness which has found an outlet.
Instead of playing 20 questions and nibbling at the bait of the Hebraisms, I'd just as soon go find out about it.
I’d read it too. It’s never been offered, as far as I know.
But which of these cities in “Babylonia” is “Babylon?”
You might want to reread Peter asking the Holy Spirit
to illuminate the text for you.
Do you have me in mind and, if so, please point out where.
We seek the blood of the perfect Passover Lamb to cover our sins We do not reject 4/5ths of the Word of G-d. We believe as Yah'shua said there is only one G-d We call on the Name of Yah'shua which means YHvH is my salvation There are numerous links on my home page.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua
instead of the blood of goats and bulls.
and His Name is YHvH.
I'm on dial-up here. Which is the best introduction?
Carry that logic forward and you can become convinced there were no blood brothers mentioned in Scripture.
Peter and Andrew, not mentioned as "blood brothers" could not have been blood brothers could they?
>>Peter and Andrew, not mentioned as “blood brothers” could not have been blood brothers could they? <<
With as quickly as women died back then, from childbirth to other diseases, who knows? And multiple wives.
So it might be interesting to see how many “brothers” in the Bible have different mothers or fathers, yet are still called “brothers”
Let me look into it and get back.
Do you think a good argument runs along the line of "This is what Jesus said in Aramaic. Sadly we don't have any evidence to prove it."?
Perhaps you will clear something else up.
I see that you are (at least I presume you are based upon what is posted on your homepage) a Messianic Jew. I find that quite fascinating and will certainly look further into your links.
However, in the interest of time and expediency, do you subscribe to the traditional Christian belief in the Trinity? A simple yes or no will suffice?
I am only asking because I’d like clarification as to whether you are simply at odds with Catholics or if you are also at odds with Protestants on this central tenet of faith.
Wow! Back when men were men!
This explains why the men invented the Sabbath. This whole thing about the temple was kind of like the shriners or something: "I'd cut the grass, honey, ah, I mean, honeys, but I have to go study Torah. You know how it is, it's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it. See you at Sundown. Gee it'll be too dark to cut the grass then, won't it. Oh Fiddle!"
You said: You’d better hope those books of the Bible are truly Holy Spirit inspired.
I don’t have to hope. The Catholic Church determined the authenticity of the books, including the books you accept. Which leads to the observation that protestants only have hope that the books of the Bible are inspired by the Holy Spirit since it was the Catholic Church which determined the books of the New Testament. Reject the Church, reject the authority that determined the New Testament. Quite a catch-22 protestants created for themselves.
... regarding a post neither to you, nor about you.
What do you all make of "There is neither Jew nor Greek.... for you are all one in Christ Jesus?" Gal 3:28.
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