Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I can only take responsibility for those things God gives me responsibility for.
Perhaps HE could be of help on the comprehension issue.
One of my Taipei friends often had to translate my English—in English—to other Americans. LOL.
Do you think evil has a conscience? Can it feel shame?
I bow to the Lord during worship almost every Sunday. This week the worship was so anointed that two women lay prostrate on the floor of the church and one was kneeling. In our church, it’s common when the Spirit of the Lord comes upon us, especially during worship. It’s quite beautiful.
LOL
I’m certainly no linguistic expert.
However, I find the assertion most illogical.
The translators of a list of translations have their scholarly reasons for saying brothers vs cousins, uncles, etc.
Sibling relationships are rather basic. I know of no language currently which cannot indicate, refer to a sibling when that is intended, needed.
I leave it to better scholars than I to explain more fully on that score.
But the RC perspective is just laughable, to me. Sounds like another exercise in mental gymnastics to contort simple language about basic simple relationships all out of whack.
God was not that poor an author—whatever the language.
There’s always another one who just KNOWS everything.
INDEED,
HE IS OUR ALL IN ALL
or He isn’t.
I pity those for whom He is not.
Ah, they’ll always find a way to bend the rules, but let someone else try and they run screaming to the mods.
Thanks for your meaningful contribution to the thread.
A LOT more folks will bother reading your text
IF
you will put white space between paragraphs approximately every 5-12 lines. Better every 5-7 at logical breaks in topic.
Blessings,
Num 36:11; Tob 7:2, Tbs 9:6 or Col 4:10How about GSN-431
>> I know of no language currently which cannot indicate, refer to a sibling when that is intended, needed.<<
And we’ve not talking about a current language are we? So, therefore, if everything is in the scriptures, where does it say “Blood Brothers”?
It’s been a long time since I read any scholarly discourse on the issue.
I’m satisfied in my own heart, spirit and mind from my own reading of Scripture as well as those scholarly inputs years ago.
Others are welcome to offer scholarly proofs for some RC’s to dance around and desperately rationalize away if they wish. Not my priority.
Thanks for your bother, however.
I’ll say it again: IF the RCC doesn’t encourage polytheism,WHY spend so much energy developing and defending extra-Biblical doctrines like the Trinity? Is Jesus not enough? Claiming some kind of obscene divine begetting; claiming procession, double or single, of something called the Holy Spirit - why? Christ and Him crucified - it’s enough! (... &C. ....)It's not that good an exercise, I guess. But the point is that we see in Mary the fulfillment of what Christ does for us AND as we have loving, wise, and holy friends whom we consult on earth and do not think talking to them takes away from talking to God, so we papists find in Mary such a friend in heaven. As in the Trinity, what we say of Mary answers somewhat to what we read in Scripture (though admittedly not that much &*212; but than I think the Arians and Eutycheans had a decent case - not a slam dunk to disagree with them) but also to our thinking about what we read and to our religious experience.
The time spent mostly is spent dealing with arguments raised by people who think we're wrong. It's kind of a rear-guard action, from our POV. The real battle is elsewhere, but we keep on being attacked on this front, so we respond.
Yes.
That aspect of the good priest’s operation in such matters causes a leap in my spirit.
Anything to bring families together around and closer to God in their daily lives and relationships is extremely important. A very very high priority imho.
I’m thrilled with your example.
Our pastor gives a reading schedule every year. He’s very, um, forceful in encouraging us to read the Bible through in one year. My husband does it every year. Before I get up in the morning, he’s on the couch reading the scriptures out loud. You can also buy a Bible that has daily readings that will get you through in a year. It’s called the One Year Bible.
If you have a point which can be made without a personal attack, it might be best to try to make it without a personal attack.
No need for scholarly discourse, a simple Google search. Philo said there is no word, give the word or what he says remains fact.
And at least, show where “Blood Brother” is used because whether it is my sister (stepsister) or my nephew’s brother (half brother) we use the simplistic form.
If Our Lord wanted “Blood Brother” to be evident, it would be there. Where is it?
>>So if you disagree Quix, can you give the Koine word for “Blood Brother”?
If one cannot, then one is disagreeing with fact. That borders on delusional.<<
Thanks. I knew someone could do much better than I on that score.
However, I assume you are NOT UNDERestimating the capacity of a number of RC’s to argue with a fence post; employ daffynitions and otherwise shuck and jive; slip and slide; run and hide in running from the truth.
None of us here worships the Bible. We read it! Try it sometime.
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