Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Read the text again for understanding.
That is Jesuitical !
No, most likely Catholic error.
NAsbU Ephesians 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
b'SHEM Yah'shua
Did I read that correctly?
You will love this.
My son just received first holy communion. He had to attend classes every Sunday....but the parents were required to attend four mandatory classes held on Saturday mornings as well, and were assigned great swaths of scripture to read, at home. When our children made their first confession the parents were required to make confession as well. Instead of all the kids sitting together to receive first communion as is customarily done ( I have never seen it otherwise ) the children sat with thier families, and the families all received as a family. Then he told all the first communicants to wear their beautiful white dresses and their suits and ties for the next three Sundays. He made them all attend 10:00 a.m. Corpus Christi mass, so that they could join him in the procession. All the boys, now that they have received first communion are required to be altar servers. No girls ever. When they make their first appearance as servers he makes a big to-do by intrroducing them to the parish, and boy do they feel special when they are applauded. My son begs me to take him to daily mass so that he can serve. My daughters want to sit up front so that they can see everything better, now that their brother is serving.
This priest really knows how to inculcate a love of the faith, the importance of the sacraments, and has the huevos to harangue if necessary. When attendance at rel. ed. classes began dropping off this spring, he let the congregation kknow of his disapproval. He knows how to get to the parents through the kids. A wonderful, wonderful priest.
Well:
“Kibud av v’em,” for starters.
Children have a positive obligation to care for their parents.
May I ask, what parish are you in?
I thought that only my parish had Altar BOYS and still did Corpus Christi!
We have Altar Boys and Choir Girls....although my girls are shooting for Lector like their mom.
:-)
Well, I don’t know if they are or not. I figured Hahn had been mentioned plenty of times and just by chance I, who don’t especially keep up with the conversion stats, happen to know this guy. Nice guy.
Hey, I wanted to give you a heads up. My hubby just called me upstairs to watch Channel 38 and Apostle Don Stewart is giving away Green Prosperity Hankerchiefs. And do you know what? A man got his Green Prosperity Hankerchief and got 7800.00 AND A CAR!
However, my hubby seems to think that Peter Popoffs Miracle Spring water will trumph it.
Yup, no good luck charms for the Protestants. These really work!!!!!
Kindly disregard previous message. brain malfunction.
You know Scott personally?
Do you know Bishop Gilbert Sheldon, Bishop Emeritus of Steubenville?
>>That is Jesuitical ! <<
Actually, it’s just plain simple fact. Brother or sister is used in refering to those who are step or half, in conversation.
tven beyond modern conversational convention, the distinction between “stepbrother” and “brother” didn’t even exist in classical or koine Greek.
This is why Orthodox tradition, which of course operates in the original language of the New Testament, has always held that the relatives of Jesus referred to in the Gospels were his stepbrothers, although western tradition following St. Jerome inclines to the cousins/Aramaic thesis.
NO. I don’t. Sorry to give that impression. I know nobody famous for churchy stuff.
You say that like it's a bad thing!
I should also menton that we have this new deacon that appears to have graduated from the Petronski school of apologetics. No beating around the bushes. Yesterday’s gospel reading of “ Lord lord....” he was inspired to say the least. :o)
Happy to agree when I can do so in clear conscience.
Of course, I am still wholesale convinced that
JUST AS SOMEO PROTTYS are idolatrous towards their pastors, choir director or member; denominations; music; doctrine; small group clique; heritage . . .
SOME
RC’s have similar and in my observations as a trained observer—typically more intense and deeper rooted idolatries towards Mary et al . . . which are sometimes expressed with a very worshipful attitude and focus when bowing before Mary’s icon or image.
But I don’t know all hearts by an infinite stretch of the imagination. It’s quite conceivable and even probable that SOME RC’s bowing towards Mary are treating her merely with respect as they would any elder or grand parent.
The fact that many RC’S hereon cannot even imagine that being true for SOME RC’s—and certainly not for the percentages Prottys suspect it being true for . . . is incredibly telling, imho.
IIRC, RC’s hereon—those few able to be objective at all about it—put the guesstimate at 5% at most. While I think a number of us Prottys would guesstimate between 45-70%.
But the important point is that none such is Biblical nor allowable for any Christian individual. And, if persisted in, will be of significant hazard to their soul.
Thanks!
That is a great web page. Sounds like a great congregation.
I think Reagan had a famous line that would fit quite nicely here.
It’s a bit sad that such a chunk of RC’s seem to have as much difficulty hearing and obeying the RM as they do hearing and obeying Scripture and Holy Spirit.
Sounds like an authority problem, to me.
Which is a bit surprising given that most of my RC counseling clients were a delight—because they did their homework diligently, respectfully, trustingly and therefore got better rapidly.
Fascinating.
I suppose one should consider giving half points for TRYING??? . . . though trying to . . . what! LOL.
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