Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
***Those darn mothers in law.
Mine is coming here in another couple of weeks. I’m getting the tire swing up so she feels at home. :)
*wince* Be certain to use a nylon belted tire... the steel belted can cut their gums, and it makes them cranky... ;)***
Crankier. She can debate herself and lose. She has been offered a career as a ‘before’ in advertising. Each conversation is especially tailored to showcase not only the current ailments, but the classic ones and the recent repercussions of them.
***Please consider that 2000 years ago, or even 500 years ago, that 95% to 99% of the population were uneducated serfs or slaves. They had no access to communication along trading routes.
And I will disagree most profoundly. The problem with your statement is found in the presence of large towns and even large cities throughout the region. Cities and towns must rely on the outlying countryside for miles around in order to simply exist- Everything ran on horsepower back in that day... Just the trade in horses alone, and the hay to feed them is a huge undertaking. Mills require raw logs; brick makers and potters require clay; butchers require beef, pork, venison, hare, and chicken; grocers require vegetables and grains... It may be that the lord owns the goods and the wagons, but you can bet money that those serfs are the poor buggars loading and unloading. ***
Look at the loaders and unloaders today, especially amongst the 3rd world. Gossip and bizarre news makes the rounds, but world affairs and international interests almost never do.
***Consider this, perhaps: If the communities were as isolated as you assume, how could the plague have spread so very quickly, and so very completely? Using the plague as an indicator, only Poland and parts of Austria were remote enough to have escaped it’s clutches.
The very same vector pathways that spread the plague, also spread the news.***
Imagine the telephone game, played at long distance. Very little actual news was spread.
***If that were true of MarySecretary or any of us, we would be wrong.
By the grace of God, we have learned that truth is what the word of God reveals to us. And those words will be used for judgment.
“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” — Matthew 12:36-37
And what words are those we are to use as a light to know the truth?
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. “ — John 6:63***
Christ speaks the words of life; I find that the support of the Reformed is in little evidence in the Bible; certainly I have found little in your postings that truly supports the theology that you espouse.
I am particularly fascinated with the myriad questions that I have posed with swathes of Scripture to support them, and not unrelated and cherry picked individual or small groups of verse that are ignored or simply answered with other unrelated verse. Sola Scriptura evidently contains only that Scripture that supports Reformed thought. All others are ignored.
No, the one I wrote about being judged for our deeds but not our sins.
***No, the one I wrote about being judged for our deeds but not our sins.***
Are sins not deeds?
That’s all I care about. Your relationship to Jesus Christ is what saves you, Opusat. I’m very happy that you do look to Him and Him only for your salvation.
I used to translate for my mother to my father’s friends when I was very young, under 5 years old. Then I would translate to my mother what they said. I lost much of it when we moved into town and started school. My sister thought in Norwegian and had a difficult time in school because of it. It’s interesting being brought up with a foreign language. I still remember quite a lot when I start talking or listening to another Norwegian. Kinda fun. Thanks for the interesting story about your husband.
Ohhh, Have fun!
I look at deeds as being the works we do. If we confess our sins to God, He will not judge us for them. We’re told to judge ourselves so that He won’t judge us. That’s why we confess to Him and that’s when He cleanses us from all unrighteousness. We go directly to Him when we sin. He then forgives us. Not too hard to figure out, is it?
***Ohhh, Have fun!***
Thank you. The tire swing still goes up.
Sounds like something one of us would say (and have said), doesn’t it?
You are welcome...another story...
When I was in high school, I used to work in my friends mothers corner store...there was a young Polish couple that came in...they did not know much English, but they were trying very hard to learn it...they had a little daughter, she must have been around 3 when they started coming into the store...whenever they came into the store, they always had her along, of course, but they wanted me to talk to her, to conduct their shopping business with the little girl...I was to tell her, whatever they needed to know, and then, and then this little girl, so sweet and little, would translate what I said into Polish for her parents....
You see, tho they were anxious to learn as much English as they could, as quickly as they could, they realized that their little girl, due to start school in a few years absolutely needed to speak English...so they went out of their way to expose her to as many English speaking people as they could, so that she would be quite fluent in English by the time she began school...
Regarding church...this Polish couple was Catholic...now being as we were in Chicago, there were many Catholic churches, within a close distance, where the congregation, was mainly made up of people whose native tongue was Polish, or least the people were bi-lingual....this Polish couple could have easily found a Catholic Church, where they would be more comfortable with the language of the parishioners...but they chose not to take that easy route, but rather attended the Catholic Church that the store owners went to, where it was English that the people were speaking...it was harder, I am sure on this Polish couple, but their main concern, and their priority always seemed to be for the little girl, as it should be, and they were willing to be inconvenienced as far as language, if they thought it to be a benefit to their little girl..
I worked in that little store for many years, and when the little girl made her First Communion, she came into the store, to show me her dress....by this time, her parents were successful, in becoming quite fluent in English....so it was a success story...
What a wonderful story! Immigrants from the ‘early days’ wanted their children to assimilate and be educated in English. The ‘new immigrants’ are trying to stay separate and make US learn Spanish to accommodate them. Maddening. It’s a whole new mindset and one which I am not the least bit fond. The good old days really were...
LOL. How will you lure her out to it?
***I look at deeds as being the works we do. If we confess our sins to God, He will not judge us for them. ***
Matt 25:
31
14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44
18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
All deeds which are not of righteousness are of sin.
So what about John 14:
1
1 2 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me.
2
In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?
Does that have any relevance?
***LOL. How will you lure her out to it?***
By making it appear like the one she uses at home. :)
You are so clever...
***You are so clever...***
My wife on the other hand, found her mother in law to be helpful, thoughtful, attentive, full of advice, wisdom in how to offer that advice, and when I brought her to see my parents for the first time, my mother asked her if she was 18 years old.
She was 28. My mother and Colleen got along famously after that and I think that my mother and my father actually preferred her company most of the time, especially after we started created blessed little bundles of joy.
Much appreciate your perspective on it.
Makes much more Biblical sense than what seemed to be implied at the time of the post.
It is beneath us to whine and cry,
= = =
Wellllllllll, Prottys . . . perhaps this is a new miracle. Won’t wonders never cease! Who’d a thunk we’d ever live to see the day that even such a CLAIM was made!
What a miracle!
PRAISE GOD FOR THAT!
At least there’s, perhaps, a microgram’s worth of hope in such a statement. Progress is progress!
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