Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I’m glad too. Too bad you cannot acknowledge the prayers of Blessed Teresa.
Christ heals, and we pray, and others pray for us in the great communion of the saints on earth and in heaven.
Death is conquered and nothing is ever lost.
I can accept your “goodwill” since I also have a very strong bias about supporting folks in whatever they honestly think God is leading them as long as it’s remotely Biblical.
I will, in charity give you that though the whole Pentacostal structure is built on sand and other such hogwash.
Ut Unum Sint and all will be one day under Peter as we pray that it be so.
“Would you be interested in “Padre Pio was a fraud” documents?”
Have them. Read them. In fact, in my other career, I was a cynic. There is little I don’t know about my own religion or others, either Christian or non-Christian.
I just don’t have the energy to launch a dissertation on a BBS.
Nor do I care.
That statement is quite absurd....that anyone is sending aggression, vengeance, and bitterness your way(this is your characterization of the situation, and no one else’s), and thereby that will prevent them from taking out such aggression, vengeance and bitterness(again, only your own characterization of the situation), on their children and spouses, is just plain absurd...this is not about displaced aggression, vengeance, or bitterness...it is about the fact, that someone might disagree with someone else...that is frankly all that it is...
This is the internet....and then there is real life...many of us here, have a real life, with a real life spouse, and real life children that we raise, support, love, and care for, day in and day out, 24/7...and we know exactly how to keep the internet and our real lives separate...and we also know, which is the most important, and of the highest priority...and those that cannot keep the two separate, may, just may, have a problem, that they need to work out...
To me, it is kind of like that saying on TV, “What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas”....it is the same here...”What happens on the internet, stays on the internet”....when I get off the internet, I put it out of my mind...why would I want any of it, to spill over into my true priority in my real life, which is my family....
That what happens on the internet, when different posters have a disagreement, would have consequences in real life, is completely ridiculous...and if what does happen on the internet, during a disagreement, has dire consequences on ones real life, it might be time, to push away from the computer screen, and step into real life for a while...
People have extreme disagreements in real life, all the time...one of my neighbors is at another neighbors throat all the time, because of one neighbors little dog yakking away at 3am...the whole neighborhood is up in arms about the number of motorcyclists speeding through our neighborhood, using it as an alternate route, while the main road outside our housing area is under construction...the neighborhood association, is always bugging someone or another about their long grass, or too many vehicles parked in their driveway...and on and on it goes...people in real life, are venting and disagreeing and arguing all of the time....and yet, in spite of these face to face, real life confrontations, I doubt that anyone feels and says to himself, “well, now, I have vented my displaced aggression, vengeance, bitterness, and therefore I have no need to beat my wife, or children”....that is just plain absurd...
True, some things that happen on the internet may have consequences good or bad in ones real life...people meet people on the internet, meet up in real life, become good friends, some even marry...many people find help for their real lives via support groups on the internet...many people of similar interests, do meet up with one another, and as real life groups, participate in activities together...on the other hand, perverts have learned how to use the internet to their own advantage, preying on the young in order to abuse them...some folks fall for the routine scams that appear on the internet, and lose oodles of money...
But that is not what I am talking about...what I am talking about is the situation here, where a number of posters(anonymously, because for the most part, we do not know one another in real life),are ‘chatting’ about a particular subject, and they disagree with one another, about one subject or another...it would be ridiculous to even assume, that one poster or another would let that disagreement, have any result, in altering the normal behavior of any poster in their real life...
That whole notion is quite absurd and ridiculous...
When I lived in North Carolina, we used to get the programs, of many different faith healers on TV, such as Jim Whittington, and Ernest Angely, being the two, whose names, I actually do remember...there was this other healer, tho I cannot remember his name, all I can really remember is that he seemed fairly young, fairly tall, and quite distinctive looking, because he had a great big high head of hair, and he always seemed to wear a frilly shirt, and what almost looked like a tuxedo...
He used to always be holding this baby....he claimed that this baby was born without a brain, only a brainstem, and the docs told the parents, that the child would die...so this faith healer said he was contacted, went up to the hospital, laid hands on the baby, prayed for the baby, and he claims he recreated the baby’s brain...every Sunday morning, this faith healer, would begin his program, about how he recreated this baby’s brain, and he would be holding the baby, holding it up to the crowd...
So when the phone number came on, for folks to call in and ask for prayer, and pledge money, I called in, to see if I could get documentation, concerning this healing...I was always told, that all information, concerning the medical facts was confidential, and could not be given out....I was asked to take on faith, that this healer, had actually recreated this baby’s brain, and that the baby was just fine...
Well, I have no doubt that the baby that this healer was holding, was just fine, as we could see that child on TV, acting normally for his age, being responsive, etc....I have no doubt, that baby, the healer was carrying, was just fine...what I had my doubts about were the claims, that the healer, recreated this baby’s brain....
Surely that would have been a unique healing, if it could have been verified...since no verification, was forthcoming, I doubted that such a healing took place...
I had hoped that when we moved to another military base, that this same healer would be on our local TV programming, but alas, he was not...
I am curious if anyone knows anything about this healer, just from the scant description of him, and his toting around this baby all the time....I really am curious to know about him, and his healing shows...
When I saw him, it was during the late 70’s-early 80’s, so granted that was a long time ago...but perhaps someone here, is knowledgeable about this particular healer...
If you look at my posts from over a long period of time, you will see me say that . . .
I am not a (*)Catholic in the Vatican sense, not am I a (**)Protestant in the Geneva sense.
*I have never seen sufficient Scripture to use either the word Catholic or Universal with regard to any organized church visible on this earth. In the last couple of days I posted a lengthy piece stating my position on the Body of Christ. You might look for that.
**Since I believe that there were independent (non-Catholic) congregations of genuine believers in existence long before Wycliffe's day, yea, existing all the way back to the Apostles, (never Catholic in the Vatican sense), and since I believe my heritage could be loosely identified with some of them, I cannot call myself a Protestant in the Geneva sense.
There are some posting on these threads who have either implied or taught outright that there was nothing but Catholic prior to the Geneva movement. That is, unless they were “heretics.” Of course, that would make all Protestants to be “heretics,” would it not? Perhaps the movement got to big and powerful, so the Vatican side eventually thought it might be best (and safer, since John Calvin himself could get pretty ugly) to withdraw the word “heretic” where it applies to them. Obviously, its hard to coax whole movements to submit to you while your are calling them “heretics,” eh?
In the Vatican view, I would surely be a heretic worthy of the stake or the rack or of being thrown in the river in a sack, bound in chains, if I lived in Europe prior to 1500. But then there were at that time some Geneva folks who would have had the same opinion of me, perhaps with the same “remedy” in mind.
You correctly state that there are many other groups that have come along since 1800 that have made themselves altogether different and would not fit either the Vatican sense or the Geneva sense either. It's a good thing they were founded in America which has (or at least used to have) an inherent sense of freedom of conscience. They are relatively safe regardless of what the rest of us think of them, and I would move to keep it that way.
No, it is not I who classifies all professing Christians as either Catholic or Protestant. I strongly PROTEST the narrow classification — which I guess makes me a “protestant” (protester), but not in the Geneva sense, you see.
Thank you very much for your post, which is quite thought provoking, and appreciated....I will study on it further...
He shows the root causes of many diseases; diabetes, cancer, arthritis, etc. I haven’t read anything out of the book in a long time so I don’t remember all of what it entails. Quix would have more information than I.
Why don’t you read the rest of the post?
Why don’t you read the rest of the post?
I don’t believe in people charging for faith healing either, but if you are talking about Dr. Wright, you will have to talk to Quix about what he does. I have his book but packed it away when I took down my bookshelves for renovations. It’s packed away somewhere. Quix can tell you more.
Making forts was always fun. MY kids did that under grandma’s dining room table and other spots. Good memories!
Only in your imagination...
You remain wrong about this.
We will never know why babies die. Only God has that answer.
So you consider her a co-redeemer, raygun?
Since they don’t believe in sola scripture, what you say about Mary has no effect on Catholics here on this forum. Don’t confuse them with facts. Their minds are made up. Love, M
You know those links you put in the post? Well, you have to be a member to see them.
What a stupid joke! Those statements could have been modified, could be inaccurate, could be anything. All the more reason not to trust anything this guy says.
Quix, their minds are closed to ANYTHING God is doing on earth today unless it’s through the magistericals. God will deal with them.
I did not read that Henry Wright had a doctorate in anything, from anywhere. In fact, Quix refers to him as Pastor Wright, even though he has no denomination.
Maybe you can fill in the gaps in our knowledge, here.
My parents were immigrants, too. Nowadays you can’t tell if they’re coming into the country legally or not. In the ‘old days’ immigrants used to assimilate. They’d learn the language, etc. Now it’s “Spanish ONLY” spoken here in many cases. Too bad.
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