The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[OLD REGGIE]

“In 1947 Gemma Di Giorgi, who was born without pupils, lived in Ribera in Sicily...."

I have seen this claim previously. Whether from you or someone else I don't know.

Suffice to say it is without proof or documentation. I can find it on one site only. Here: Padre Pio

Is it possible you can provide more info? Documented and attested information?

[Quix]

Was going to comment how I’d long known of Bro McNutt’s ministry and greatly respected and supported it—have encouraged folks to seek it out, IIRC.

Instead, I’ll just thank you for the fiercely hostile personal assault.

[Quix]

LOL.

Thanks for your pings.

[Quix]

Ahhhh welll . . . just think how much displaced aggression, vengeance, bitterness etc. is being sent my way. Perhaps some children or spouses will be thereby spared some of the usual.

[OpusatFR]

“Instead, I’ll just thank you for the fiercely hostile personal assault.”

Take it as you will, but it is in charity that I warn you against the calumnies and slanders as you call the Church blasphemy.

You will account before Him one day for every word you speak.

I refuse to mince words, and if I have a rather fiercesome way of making my point, it is only to make sleepers wake.

[OpusatFR]

I’m sure you can use google as well as anyone else.

Try Gemma Di Giorgi. It’s instructive.

[Judith Anne]

If there is an MD in this country who will testify that cancer of the left breast is due to problems with the biological mother, and cancer of the right breast is due to problems with the mother in law, send me that doctor's name. I will be absolutely certain to never consult him for anything whatsoever, should he be the last doctor on earth.

Ahhhh welll . . . just think how much displaced aggression, vengeance, bitterness etc. is being sent my way. Perhaps some children or spouses will be thereby spared some of the usual

Meaning you are the whipping boy for others' aggression? A martyr, as it were? Or is it that naturally kind, loving intelligent people find they can, when necessary, summon up a richly warranted hostility?

People who prey on others' misfortune, whether they are clearly unbalanced or just power and money hungry, are going to get their just reward. I think I'll go look up the cost of one of those "special retreats" that Wright gives. We already know that the basic book is $24.99 (plus shipping and handling).

I may even buy the book, just to see what other quackery besides the causes of right and left breast cancer he tries to pass off as "from the Holy Spirit."

[OpusatFR]

I have nothing against you. Your personal remarks are simply snide.

As I said, you will account.

[Quix]

I remain a fierce proponent of

fierce Love

and

fierce Truth.

[Judith Anne]

I remain a fierce proponent of

fierce Love

and

fierce Truth.

Imagine that! How is it that such dreadful misunderstandings arise, from all that "fierce love and truth"?

So, how's that workin' out for ya?

[andysandmikesmom]

This is not about what religion I belong to...all this was, was about my not telling another poster if I was a Catholic, or a Protestant, or whatever....there is a difference.....

And when we get to your definition or what someone else’s definition would be, of a ‘Protestant’, I am sure that there will be a great disagreement....after all, many folks feel that that Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists, Christian Scientists,(who all proclaim to be Christians), are simply not Christians at all, therefore, they could not even be classified as Protestants...

So your declaration is hardly as clear cut as you state..do tell us, in your opinion, what religions, whose members declare themselves to be non-Catholic Christians, cannot possibly be Protestant...or rather, in your opinion, is someone who declares himself to be a Christian, of whatever religion, a Protestant...

Many people feel that any religion whose adherents claim to be non-Catholic Christians, are all Protestant religions...others say, that those of the LDS faith, Jehovah’s Witnesses faith, 7th Day Adventist faith, and Christian Scientist faith, are simply not Christians at all, but rather members of some weird cult...therefore, since they are not Catholic, since they are not even Christian(and therefore cannot be Protestants), they must all be heretics....

For example, if I was to tell you that I was a Jehovah’s Witness(which I am not), where would you put me, in your three classifications....if I was to tell you I was a Mormon(which I am not), where would you put me, in your three classifications....

Wherever you would place me, there will be someone else to come along, and put me into a different classification...

Just look at the other threads here at FR...Mormons are constantly being told, that they are not Christians, by those who consider them as such....even tho a Mormon says they are a Christian, of the Mormon faith, be sure that someone else will come along and tell them, such a thing is impossible...that there is no such thing as a Christian Mormon...so therefore, since the Mormon is not a Catholic, and is not even a Christian(therefore they cannot be a Protestant), they must, by process of elimination, then be a heretic...

Others do feel that Mormons are Christians, but since they are not Catholic, they must be Protestant...

Everyone has their own opinion, about what religions are Protestant, and which religions fall outside of that Protestant label, and fall into your category of heretic...

[andysandmikesmom]

This is merely your opinion...as such, it has as much weight as anyone else’s opinion, who disagrees completely with you...

We all have our own opinions, based on our life experiences...and since we all have different life experience, we may all come to very different opinions, about things...

I dont, and most people dont, change their opinions, based on someone elses opinion, or someone else’s life experiences...

And thus it goes....you have your opinions, I have my opinions, but certainly other folks are not going to change their own personal opinions, based on the say so of either you or me...other folks will evaluate any information, facts and evidence provided, look towards their own life experiences, and then as it should be, they will form their own opinions...

[andysandmikesmom]

I agree completely with what you say here...thanks for saying it...

[andysandmikesmom]

Again, I agree with what you say....people are ‘mysteriously’ healed in all types of venues....it can happen, and it does happen..

[OLD REGGIE]

Try Gemma Di Giorgi. It’s instructive.

Almost without exception Catholic Apologetic sites. I see no evidence of a complete unbiased investigation.

I did find a slightly different story though.

Last year I was invited to meet with Gemma di Giorgi, a middle-aged lady from Sicily who by the grace of God received a miracle from Padre Pio when he was still alive. At that time she was seven years old. She was born without the retina in her eyes and was totally blind. It is like having a camera but without a film in it. Her grandmother, a fervent believer, prayed a lot for a miracle. Having heard so much about Padre Pio she decided one day to take her daughter and visit Padre Pio to ask him for his prayers. So both of them took the train and on the way to Padre Pio, she was healed. She could see. The first thing she saw was the sea and a ship. Then she turned around and looked at her grandmother. Since then she is well known all over Italy and last year I had met her just after her visit to the Holy Father who recognized her and gave her a Rosary. In many of Padre Pio's books she is mentioned as one of his great miracles. The miracle is that she still has no retina and yet she can see. The doctors are all confounded...

When did she first gain her eyesight?

[OpusatFR]

I believe that no matter how much documentation I post, you would never consider it.

I could send you my own CT’s and MRI’s and the surgical notes all three of which I have in my closet, but that wouldn’t prove anything to your satisfaction.

Perhaps I could put it like this: Believe what you want.

[Quix]

I have no trouble believing nor Praising God for your miracle.

PRAISE GOD FOR IT!

I’m glad you were blessed by it.

[Quix]

That’s rich . . . as thick as the irony.

[Quix]

Fierce words out of flawed assumptions miss their mark.

[OLD REGGIE]

I believe that no matter how much documentation I post, you would never consider it.

Of course I would. I would also consider the same story, told 20 times in 20 Catholic Apologetic sites, an one document.

Would you be interested in "Padre Pio was a fraud" documents?