Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
A GAP
At present, we are in a “prophecy gap,” which began with Israel’s final rejection of her King (Acts 7-28). As examples (among very many)….
A gap of centuries exists between “And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:”—gap—“But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.” (Isaiah 11:3, 4). Read from verse 1 through 9, and you will see both the First and Second Advents of Jesus Christ spoken of as if having taken place without any interruption. But we know that there was indeed an interruption—a gap—between the two. Verses 4-9 have yet to be fulfilled. Do you not see why it is important to teach that there is a prophetic gap in many Old Testament passages?
Note the gap in prophetic events between “Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.”—gap—“For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground; I will pour my spirit upon thy seed,… (Isaiah 44:2, 3).
A gap in prophecy exists between “…and to make reconciliation for iniquity (the Cross of Christ),” — gap — “and to bring in everlasting righteousness,…” (Daniel 9:24).
We are living in a parenthetical period of time between “After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself” – gap – “and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city...” (Daniel 9:26).
It is a gap between “the sufferings of Christ” – gap – “and the glory that should follow” (1 Peter 1:11).
We are in a gap between “save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns” – gap – and “I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation [church] will I praise thee” (Psalms 22:21, 22).
We are in a gap between “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to....proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,” – gap – and “the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;...” (Isaiah 61:1, 2; Luke 4:18-21).
It is a gap even in Satan’s attempts at destroying the work of God between “…and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” – gap – “and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God,….” (Revelation 12:5, 6).
This gap (or parentheses) will end with the removal of the Body of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52; Philippians 3:21; Titus 2:13).
AN ETERNAL PROVISION FOR PROPHECY’S INTERIM
But wait! God certainly knew that Israel would falter and reject the offer of the King and of the Kingdom. So there had to be a provision in the purposes of God for this eventuality. That provision was ‘something’ hid in God from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 3:1-7; Romans 16:25), but purposed in Christ from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3-14; etc.). Christ’s Body has to do with God’s eternal purposes in Christ; as eternal as the relationship between the Father and the Son (See Ephesians 3:11 and compare Proverbs chapter 8.). Neither Israel nor the local churches of the present era are spoken of in the same fashion.
The ascended Head of the Body of Christ revealed this “provision” first and directly to the Apostle Paul from Heaven. It is altogether a new thing relative to the prophetic purposes for Israel and of our Lord’s earthly ministry. Paul emphasized that there is advanced revelation to what was given during Christ’s earthly sojourn –
“Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh
[regarding Christ’s earthly ministry]:….
“yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh
[Gospels, early Acts period (See Hebrews 2:3)],….
“yet now henceforth know we him no more.
[No man reading this can know Christ after the flesh]….
“Therefore if any man be in Christ
[’in Christ’ is a concept unrevealed in Matthew, Mark, Luke], ….
“he is a new creature: old things are passed away
[kingdom methods and principles, holy days, meats and drinks, new moons and sabbath days, carnal ordinances, &c. ] ….
“behold, all things are become new”
[a completely new thing, previously un-revealed] (2 Corinthians 5:16).”
This shows us also that 2 Cor. 5:17 has much more in view than an outwardly cleaned-up church member. We are certain that it includes God’s workings in the testimony of his children. Some preachers, however, are not aware that 2 Cor. 5:17 means much more than a hair cut, shave, shirt ‘n tie, and sitting on the front pew.
And that leads us to the third Church in our study.......
When individual saints (all believers are saints) have a close walk with the Lord, and have learned to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth (John 4:24 — the kind of worshipers God seeks), it is no strange thing that when many of these are assembled together in Jesus’ Name, there will be an atmosphere of public worship that reflects the same.
Raising of the hands, crying out in exultation of God, and many manifestations which are considered mere emotionalism by many — but they are not necessarily mere human emotion — will be witnessed. The universe can not contain God, and yet He dwells in every genuine believer. Think of what that might manifest when God's children are actually filled with the Spirit of God (Ephesians 5:18).
Such is not new. It is not a “contemporary” worship “style.” I am amazed at the current emphasis on “worship teams,” “worship leaders” and such like. Is not the Holy Spirit the worship Leader? If you have gathered together God's children who are accustomed to private worship in the genuine Biblical sense, it will ooze out, or bust out in “gathered” worship.
We have driven along back mountain roads in the Carolinas and West Virgina, and come across elderly Christian sisters, sitting on the porch overlooking a ravine, when they have been saturating themselves in the Words of God (that's the Bible), and have been in earnest prayer for pastors, missionaries, the sick, and the unconverted. We have witnessed the “glow” of their private worship. It's neither a mystical, nor a spooky thing. It is a real walk with a real God. What a joy to spend some hours with such saints. Many of these have read their Bibles completely through dozens of time in their Christian lives.
Now take 50 or a hundred, or more, of this same kind of Christian — those who talk to God in such a personal way because they actually know Him that person-ably (Philippians 3:10), and are filled with His Spirit. Gather them in a meeting where prayer is want to be made, and the preaching of the Word of God is in power. One might be very surprised at the manifestations of God in His people in such a gathering. This might be in a church house, or in a tabernacle, tent, or brush arbor — in a forest or at a river side. The place matters little. The Person of the Lord Jesus Christ being lifted up and the moving of the Holy Spirit not being quenched. My, my. What gatherings! What worship! What a Saviour!
It prepare the heart and the spiritual energies for more and greater service to our Lord and to His people.
He is quoting "Examples of figures concerning the number killed". Dowling was used as an example- he was not cited.
A sixty page article, well attributed, and fully referenced, and you "find" cause to reject it wholesale in nearly the first paragraph.
That doesn't say much for your argument.
Emotional self-gratification, mob psychology, and ritualized hysteria, thinly veiled by the excuse of praising God. God has very little to do with it; I’ve attended these demonstrations. Sick.
Mad Dawg was just pokin' fun at me, and I was pokin' fun at MarkBsnr who seemed incredulous that I had gone so far as to reject Paganism, starting with a comment I made regarding my intentions (or at least near intentions) of reverting to a Saturday Sabbath. At any rate, Dawg was not being critical...
Sorry, html glitch...
IMHO, you are painting with a very broad brush.
Thank you, and likewise. :)
LOL! Yes, and my other other hand to hold my glasses on while looking down :D
Sorry about the ill-health. I'll nag God a little.
Thanks, FRiend.
Petronski: Where did you get the idea I was providing that? That would be the act of a sola scripturist.
He may well have gotten the idea from your post 9238 in which you explicitly told me that the Bible DOES NOT say that Mary was a sinner. Since the Bible is clear that EVERYONE is a sinner, with stated exceptions for Christ, then it stands to reason that you think the Bible must contain an exception for her too, since she would be included with "everyone". You asked me a question and I provided you with several passages which you dismissed without comment. I can only guess why. I'm just asking you to now answer my question. What are the Biblical exceptions for Mary?
But when people walk with God, and His presence (Remember people talking His real presence being in some elements having to do with a ritual?) is manifested in their worship, all of a sudden it is emotionalism, psychology, sickness, and so forth. I am avoiding direct answers to those who have, evidently, narrow experiences.
God made man to be emotional — feeling. There is even a “feeling after God” that God Himself wants to take place in man (Acts 17:27; etc.).
We marry with great emotion, we bear children with great emotion, we strive to raise them correctly with great emotional stresses, we even bury some of them, along with our sick and elderly. We celebrate things common to most men with emotion.
But let us have emotion with the REAL PRESENCE of God in our daily walk with Him and it becomes mere emotionalISM, psychological veneer, mental sickness and the rest, in the view of some religionists. We would be denied any closeness to God unless we travel through their system.
I just couldn't resist the opportunity to testify for a what I know to be a close walk with the Saviour.
No personal jab intended, Mad Dawg.
Yes, it's more efficient. Like the protties who insist that no matter what we say, it LOOKS LIKE Catholics worship Mary. I thank them for showing me the technique.
That wasn't what you described here:
Now take 50 or a hundred, or more, of this same kind of Christian — those who talk to God in such a personal way because they actually know Him that person-ably (Philippians 3:10), and are filled with His Spirit. Gather them in a meeting where prayer is want to be made, and the preaching of the Word of God is in power. One might be very surprised at the manifestations of God in His people in such a gathering. This might be in a church house, or in a tabernacle, tent, or brush arbor — in a forest or at a river side. The place matters little. The Person of the Lord Jesus Christ being lifted up and the moving of the Holy Spirit not being quenched. My, my. What gatherings! What worship! What a Saviour!
As I said, I've BEEN to those meetings. The HS, had He been present, would have been appalled.
As I said, I’ve BEEN to those meetings. The HS, had He been present, would have been appalled.
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What did I describe that was un-Biblical or absurd? My remarks were general without detail as to any actual practice?
Actually, I doubt that you have ever been in meetings such as the ones I have in mind. Would you care to identify meetings you have attended?
Are you up too early in the morning? It’s 4:45 in the afternoon where I am.
Nope. Think what you like.
Yes, I woke up needing an extra pain pill. I have RA, and my hands were just throbbing. They’ve settled down, a bit, now.
I take Ultram + Tylenol, one or two a day. Sometimes at night, I need an extra pill. The doctor is willing to give me stronger meds, but I expect I’ll have RA for quite a few years, and I don’t want to get hooked until/unless it’s necessary.
One cannot hold it against them that do not have understanding, I would say. They don't know the difference, or they would not criticize.
I have expressed my leanings toward Pentecostal churches because I KNOW what it is to be filled with the Ghost, and I KNOW what it is to have visions and dreams. I have seen miracles before my very eyes. God is good! Praise His Name!
That being said, there is more than one way to worship- some folks do solemnity and hymnals, some folks are all guitars and tambourines. The requirement is to worship in spirit and in truth. Different strokes for different folks. It's all good, providing it is according to what the Good Book says.
Yes they certainly did, and there are tons of examples. Unfortunately, many of those example look all too familiar in today's world.
To your excellent offering of Scripture, we can add...
AMEN to your additions, Dr. E. Thank you. :) Those are all right on point. It seems to me that when I consider whether Sola Scriptura is proclaimed in the Bible it is not so much a matter of accepting it, but whether I choose to reject it. It's kind of like considering whether or not we are breathing air. It doesn't really occur to us "should I accept this statement?". It only comes up when for whatever reason someone or some people decide that they are not in fact breathing air and are doing something else instead. Very strange. :)
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