Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
I dont know that I have seen a particular church say that they are the ‘only’ ones led by the Holy Spirit, not in those exact words...if I left that impression, I did not mean to..what I did state, however, is that a church or denomination, or a person, who says they are led by the Holy Spirit, and then another church or denomination or person, says that they also are led by the Holy Spirit, but they have different and conflicting beliefs, my question is, how can they then both be led by the Holy Spirit....does the Holy Spirit say one thing to one church or denomination, or person, and then say something completely opposite to another church or denomination or person?....that is what I am questioning...
Do I agree with what concerning the Roman Pontiff?...since I am not a Catholic, I dont know their positions on a myriad of subjects...I dont know that if I have seen the exact claim you are repeating, or if I did see it, I dont remember it...I am not sure, if you are asking if I have seen that claim, or are you asking me if I agree with that claim...
Really? We are trying to get at truth not appeasing people's sensitivity in regards to a belief system.
Heck at least a good friend and a nun plus my mom I always debate do not play the offensive card. Of course this is usually over some adult beverages. Have a beer or something and relax. I don't get offended if my beliefs are challenged, (God, politics etc...) I am too confident in them.
Know why, because they were actual people who witnessed and wrote down the plan for salvation. Not a feel good story based on gnostic writings that finally caught on only to made dogma 1500 years later. And if you don't buy what Pius XII sells then bye, bye divine Catholic faith.
Let me end by saying: Hey cheerio old chap talk to you in the morning or whenever I log back on.
Just as I believe there is no such thing as a "perfect" Bible but many that are "sufficient", I believe the same applies to Churches/individuals.
Do I agree with what concerning the Roman Pontiff?...since I am not a Catholic, I dont know their positions on a myriad of subjects...I dont know that if I have seen the exact claim you are repeating, or if I did see it, I dont remember it...I am not sure, if you are asking if I have seen that claim, or are you asking me if I agree with that claim...
My mistake. I thought you were Catholic.
In fact a Pope did make such a claim "infallibly".
"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
UNAM SANCTAM - Pope Boniface VIII (1302 A.D.)
>oh, yeah, and all those whose buddies prayed to Mary after they died. They’re okay, too” <
Is this supposed to be some intellectual theological answer?
It sounds more like some kind of playgroung taunt.
I think I have to agree with your statement “It isn’t possible that the Holy Spirit would lead a Church or an individual into completely opposite directions.”...yes, I agree with that statement...
However, that is not what I am saying....people ‘say’ that they are led by the Holy Spirit and are in complete disagreement with other folks who also ‘say’, that they are led by the Holy Spirit...
Just look at the differences between Catholics, and non-Catholics, such as are represented on this thread...the general subject matter on this thread was about Mary...clearly there is great disagreement about Mary, whether she remained a perpetual Virgin, whether she is in Heaven, alive and interceding on behalf of all who ask for her help, whether she died a natural death and remains in the grave, or is she alive at the side of Christ, in Heaven...take other subjects where Catholics and non-Catholic Christians on this thread will generally disagree...transubstantiation, is always a hotly contested debate...celibacy for the clergy, is another hot button issue...and yet, the Catholic Church and Catholics as individuals will say, they are led by the Holy Spirit while other non-Catholic Christian churches or individuals will also say they are led by the Holy Spirit...both sides, ‘saying’, that they are led by the Holy Spirit, and yet clearly both sides coming to completely different beliefs...this is clearly not a case of merely emphasizing certain differences, it is clearly a case of having completely different beliefs...
And let us not forget the never ending Mormon/anti-Mormon threads on FR...the Mormons all claim that they read the Bible, read the BOM, prayed, and were led by the Holy Spirit to believe in the LDS faith....and then you will have the anti-Mormons say exactly the opposite...that they read the Bible, read the BOM, prayed, and were led by the Holy Spirit to see that the LDS faith was dangerous and a false religion...
I have acquaintances, who are Jehovahs Witnesses...I say only acquaintances, since I am not a Jehovahs Witness, they would never consider me a friend...their stance on refusing blood transfusions, based their understanding of a few Scriptures is repulsive to me, and yet that is their faith...they would and do also claim, they are led by the Holy Spirit to come to this belief...
I once took care of an elderly Christian Science woman...when she was dying, in agony, we were not allowed too offer her any ‘medical’ care, as it is not allowed by that religion...watching her die, in agony was just awful, and yet we were powerless to help, because if we did, we would be infringing on her religious rights, and we were not allowed to do that...and yet, I would venture that those who belong to the Christian Science faith, would assert, that they too, are led by the Holy Spirit...
And what about people whose faith, demands, that they isolate themselves from the rest of society, such as the Amish....I would venture to guess, that they also would assert that they are led to be a separate people, by virtue of being led by the Holy Spirit...
I could go on and on, into even more bizarre instances of where folks claim that they come to their beliefs, being led by the Holy Spirit...but you get my point, I am sure...people can ‘say’, they are led by the Holy Spirit, churches can ‘say’ their dogmas, their beliefs, are as they are, because they ‘say’ they were by the Holy Spirit...
Clearly individuals, churches, religions, etc, can ‘say’, that they are led by the Holy Spirit, but it seems obvious, that they are led to very different beliefs...
Whenever someone says, that they are led by the Holy Spirit, to believe in such and such a way, there is always another poster, who will pop up, and declare, that certainly it was not the Holy Spirit leading them to come to that belief, but rather a more evil, sinister spirit...the one popping up, to object, has come to completely different beliefs from the initial poster, and the one popping up, says that they are led by the Holy Spirit, which is how they know that the first poster is being led by the evil spirit...
It is a never ending go round, about who is led by the Holy Spirit, and who is led by an evil spirit...
Regarding Catholic beliefs on this matter...I will read what you have provided at your link, as I have time, and see what I think....thanks for providing it, for me...
Thank you. It’s a subject that bothers me because Mary has no power to answer prayers or even to intercede for us, no matter how much we want her to. Only Jesus has that honor.
I had a wonderful fourth. Our town has a big parade and lots of craft and food booths. Lots of music, seeing friends, visiting with folks you haven’t seen in a long time (our reunions are held on this weekend as well), and it was just a beautiful day. I wish God was more glorified in it but... Love, Maryxxx
It really comes up green on my computer. Isn’t that odd? I’m sorry to hear about your various health problems. I can certainly identify but praise God that in spite of all of them, I’m able to function pretty well. My prayers will be with you, dear roamer. Mxxx
True, we are to reverence God. I don’t believe we need to be shaking in fear over what God will do (as long as we are obedient to Him). But He and He alone has the power to send one to Hell (I believe that’s scriptural) and we are to ‘fear Him’ over satan (who has no power except what we give him).
And only one hand when you need the other to hold the hymnal, right?
Sorry about the ill-health. I'll nag God a little.
God used Mary for His plan, in this I agree.
Also God used John the Baptist, Apostles, prophets, David, Moses, Abraham etc...
And with that comes John 19:30.
And you’ve been wrong all along.
Right. That’s the quote we already had.
Where is the part where he said “paganism sanctified by adoption?”
I built no such thing.
Or, was it the Catholic Church which built this system?
Nope.
It is natural to mock what one does not understand.
Your quote provides no answer.
Who teaches that Mary is directly involved in the "ressurection" of other Christians?
By your quote, the Catholic Church.
You seem to post many things that do not prove what you claim, and you show every plan of not understanding that failure.
Here are some of the places where figures about religious persecutions are given. Dowling in his History of Romanism says"From the birth of Popery in 606 to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than fifty millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors, an average of more than forty thousand religious murders for every year of the existence of popery." -- "History of Romanism," pp. 541, 542. New York: 1871.
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