Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Catholic Teaching - The Catechism of The Catholic Church.
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
Thank you for your kind remarks...
God gives us the "rules" and we either to choose them or not. The consequences are the result of our actions. God, like a loving Father, wishes us to obey the rules, but He does not force us. That, it seems to me is the "free will" part of our relationship with Him.
While you state that the bible says He took out about 50,000 Israelites at one time, how do we know that it was not the consequence of their own actions that took them out. God does not have to be "angry", that is a human word for a human characteristic. (Back to the I Am, Who Am. thing)
Should I be afraid of God? Or of my own failures...
***will you explain what it actually says, including an explanation of the numerous footnotes? The world awaits!***
Actually I think that you’ve done a good job all by yourself.
*** When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace***
I bet you didn’t know that you had it in you.
***I knew very well that I had it in me to predict you’d give a “no answer” answer.***
Why would I answer a question that you had already correctly answered? I don’t want to take any of the limelight away from you on those occasions that you get it right.
"Hey, you're the guy who made my head hot! Well, you're not going to make my friends' heads hot!"
- The Tick, from The Tick vs. The Mole-Men
***The Society Of Jesus***
Sounds promising.
***We’ve been banned by the Catholic Church, we’ve been suppressed, but we continue strong and working within. ***
A fellow traveller?
***Our destiny is to control the Catholic Church. Care to be one of us? ***
You have expressed some anti Catholic thoughts in the past. I’d have to pass, but thank you for your kind off.
***If I told you I’d have to kill you.***
:)
:)
That’s not the point, Dr. E. and others want to say that the Assumption didn’t exist for 1800 years. This was demonstrated to be false.
***What kind of lunatic is going to entrust their everlasting soul to a guess?***
It is worse than a guess.
Proverb 16:
16
How much better to acquire wisdom than gold! To acquire understanding is more desirable than silver.
17
The path of the upright avoids misfortune; he who pays attention to his way safeguards his life.
18
Pride goes before disaster, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
19
It is better to be humble with the meek than to share plunder with the proud.
We face the proud, full of hubris and sure of the ability to be their own Pope and declare their own doctrine. We have those who openly preach the theology of death and their sycophants and supporters, who do not yet openly preach it.
As Kellogg created Corn Flakes, so the brightest angel created YOPIOS.
***I am one who believes there is no “perfect” translation but there are many which are “sufficient”.***
***I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.***
I am gratified that you understand the difference between belief and knowing. It is not ‘sufficient’, yet it is better than the nothing that you claim to know.
If this were anywhere else than this contentious forum I wouldn't say this, but here we are, so here I go:
It's important to know the difference between what is in one's own head and what is in somebody else's head. And if one has any reason not to be sure, it's good to check.
I will now say the blessing one says when he sees a wise man.
You’re claiming you’re a Jesuit?
Well, he says he's a Uitarian and he knows everything. It just might be ....
LOL
Possibly he could be a Utilitarian. That way he could do everything.
***All anyone has to do is read Calvin and decide for themselves.***
What are you talking about? Under Calvin there is no decision. Without the Reformed Holy Spirit there is no decision.
You folks are funny. Extremely inconsistent and untrue to stated claims, but funny.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.