Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
There's your idolatry right there; sola Cauvin is dangerous for your soul.
That does not follow logically.
Ah yes, the fatal flaw of YOPIOS, the practitioner doesn't have a clue if they've got it right or not.
What kind of lunatic is going to entrust their everlasting soul to a guess?
Thank you both, for your kind words...
Oh, well, please don’t bother to answer any of my posts to others, then, MD.
ROTFL! Let them have their Leagues. We have no need of one!
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
- Romans 12:19For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY " And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
- Hebrews 10:30-31
What a great testimony, mom. That was beautiful. People can come to the Lord at any time in their lives. My grandmother was in a nursing home and I led her to the Lord when she was 96. Hubby and I had a music ministry that went to several homes in the area. It was such fun and they loved our old timey tunes. I typed up books with hundreds of different songs in them and we had several who sang with us and a great keyboardist. It was a great 12 year run. So I do know what you are saying from a personal viewpoint. We led a number of these old people to the Lord before they died. They were so open to that. Hallelujah. You are a real blessing.
It’s odd that they can believe THEIR church fathers’ writings but not anybody else’s. What a hoot.
Astonishing, the inability or unwillingness of some to see anything but black or white, all or nothing! I have no problem with interjections. The conversation moved on with enat just fine, and I didn't understand why YOU were telling me what HE meant. If you wanted to say what YOU might mean by those words, that's fine. If you wanted to carry the conversation along, that would be fine too, of course!
But I'd venture to suggest that enat is the world's foremost expert on what HE meant by his words.
Yes, it IS a God appointed time (I call them Godincidences.) and what a blessing she is to those dear folks.
Yes, it IS a God appointed time (I call them Godincidences.) and what a blessing she is to those dear folks.
And they were wrong back then, too.
“But I’d venture to suggest that enat is the world’s foremost expert on what HE meant by his words.”
Right, and if he doesn’t know or can’t explain it , Mrs. enat will gladly tell you what he meant and he will readily agree.
It’s the way you wrote it that was a little offensive and unkind and a bit hostile.
I am one who believes there is no "perfect" translation but there are many which are "sufficient".
Ours are right.
And thank you as well, for the kind words...
Music ministies in nursing homes are quite wonderful...the seniors really do love it, so thank you for having a nursing home music ministry...
At one of the nursing homes I worked at, they had a little band come in every single Friday afternoon....they would set up in the dining room, and then we would take many of the seniors into the dining room, for a time of music and conversation...this little band played lots of the old timey secular songs, that our seniors could relate to...
One New Years Eve, this band came in, for an early New Years Eve celebration for the seniors...they decorated the dining room all up, and the seniors got more dressed up, than they usually did, and it was such fun...many of the seniors familes came in for this event, and it was such fun to watch the seniors dancing, sometimes it was the healthy spouse, pushing around their ill spouse in the wheelchair...lots of love there..
I was sitting at a table, with one of my favorite gentlemen residents, and his wife....they had really been enjoying the dancing...the band took a break...when they returned the music began..this gent, got up, ready to dance again...only this one time, he did not ask his wife for a dance, he wanted to dance with me....his wife just smiled and winked at me...that old guy sure did twirl me around the dance floor...I guess he wanted to show me, that altho I had to take care of him, in most ways, he could still tire me out on the dance floor...it was just too cute...
I have always believed we can learn a lot from the elderly...I always thought that even when I was quite young...perhaps that is why I so enjoyed working in nursing homes....it sure was not for the low pay...
One of the nurses, that worked at one of the nursing homes I worked at, had a music ministry, and she would come in every Sunday morning, and she would play the piano and sing hymns for the residents, and her hubby would accompany her, on his own instrument(I forget what he played)...many of the elderly are left in nursing homes, with no companionship, no outsiders coming in, to visit with them...for many of them, these music ministries are a true blessing, and I am so glad that you had such a ministry...thanks so much, for thinking of the elderly, all too often they are forgotten and neglected...and often they are forgotten and neglected by their own families, which makes it all the more hurtful to them...but a music ministry such as you had, can lessen that hurt, so many thanks for what you accomplished...I am sure, it was much appreciated by many elderly...
***ROTFL! Let them have their Leagues. We have no need of one! ***
14
6 Bless those who persecute (you), bless and do not curse them.
15
Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.
16
Have the same regard for one another; do not be haughty but associate with the lowly; do not be wise in your own estimation.
17
Do not repay anyone evil for evil; be concerned for what is noble in the sight of all.
18
If possible, on your part, live at peace with all.
19
Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
20
Rather, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.”
21
Do not be conquered by evil but conquer evil with good.
Would you like a drink instead?
***I don’t belong to a hate league. Can you send me the address for the one you like the most?
Do you care to identify the “We” you speak of?***
I’m one of the paid front men for a shadowy organization based in the lower rooms of the Vatican. I’d like to check out your favorite hate group to see how it reflects your postings; to see how effective its teachings are on some of the star pupils.
How large was your class and what was your standing at graduation?
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