Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
OK, I find it rather uninspiring, but I have read at least some of it. It seems somewhat subject to interpretation. Who’s version should I read? Who’s interpretation should I accept as “truth?”
“Perhaps the interpretations given by those who distort what Catholics believe seems to us just as insane and rambling and so distorted they offend”
I agree with you there. A disagreement over interpretation of scripture or the history of Christianity or the church is one thing but we should not distort each others beliefs.
I guess my husband had "lousy catechesis," too. He was trained by Jesuits through grad school, but by the grace of God, he was brought out of the darkness into the light of the risen Christ made known to us in Scripture through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Maybe it wasn't "lousy catechesis." Maybe it was as good a "catechesis" as Rome could produce. And yet some men succumb to it and others flee it before finding refuge in the God-given good conscience "purged from dead works to serve the living God."
They are telling God that they have Faith enough for Him to elect them.
The Calvinist believes no man is capable of saving faith unless and until God first regenerates his heart and gives him new eyes and new ears and a renewed mind.
And none of those things are of men themselves. We are all fallen and none seek God's face.
Only the supernatural rebirth by Holy Spirit, given by God to whom He will, changes the sinner from God-loathing to God-fearing, not according to our merit or our ability, but according to His good pleasure alone.
Men are not good and therefore men believe. Men are fallen and incapable of belief unless God first grabs hold of them and drags them to Him, imputing to them the righteousness of Christ in place of their own fleshly nature.
And then they believe.
This calls for speculation.
(In the book, wasn't Gargantua a male?)
What was his graduate degree in and how many theology courses did he take? Maybe he didn't study Penance. If your husband thinks that we teach that penance causes forgiveness then either he had bad catechesis or he missed the point somehow.
Speaking of the point, we were discussing your line
. Yet what does Catholicism preach? Say 10 "Our Fathers and 12"Hail Marys" and you'll be forgiven!!??If you want to change the subject, that's fine, but I like to keep track. I'm arguing that that is a false description of what the Church teaches. Are we going to talk about your husband now?
” A disagreement over interpretation of scripture or the history of Christianity or the church is one thing but we should not distort each others beliefs.”
Exactly.
I wonder if it is possible on any thread to understand that veneration is not worship without being once again told it is. We do not worship a fellow creature. We revere and venerate, but we do not worship and adore.
“As enat pointed out, you display a non-existent understanding of Calvinism.”
And you display a non-existent understanding of Catholicism, but that never stopped you from distorting from all recognition what it is Catholics believe.
You find the Bible "uninspiring?"
I'm sorry. I find it very inspiring.
Try reading Colossians 1.
I didn't write that.
What was his graduate degree in and how many theology courses did he take? Maybe he didn't study Penance.
lol. More justification by legislation, eh? I would bet my husband studied more about "Penance" than you have thus far as a convert.
By the grace of God, he was turned away from the errors of Rome and led to the truth of God's word.
Seriously, why would I want to believe what someone wrote about 2000 years ago more than someone standing right in front of me? After all, I could at least ask the person in front of me to clarify something I didn't understand. With an epistle, if I don't understand the relevance to me and my life, to whom should I turn?
LOL The only point I get is that you are a blithering idiot. LOL
“I would bet my husband studied more about “Penance” than you have thus far as a convert.”
ROTFL!
Married, eh?
And the round goes to Gargantua!
Congratulations, Gargantua. You're earning your stripes at lightening speed.
Married to a former Catholic who was trained by Jesuits through grad school and who, by the grace of God, is now a reformed Christian who knows whom he has believed.
Yo! Gargantua:
I guess my husband had "lousy catechesis," too.This calls for speculation.
(In the book, wasn't Gargantua a male?)
What was his graduate degree in and how many theology courses did he take? Maybe he didn't study Penance. If your husband thinks that we teach that penance causes forgiveness then either he had bad catechesis or he missed the point somehow.
Speaking of the point, we were discussing your line
Yet what does Catholicism preach? Say 10 "Our Fathers and 12"Hail Marys" and you'll be forgiven!!??If you want to change the subject, that's fine, but I like to keep track. I'm arguing that that is a false description of what the Church teaches. Are we going to talk about your husband now?
He can have the round. I'm happy with my beautiful sentence.
***I’ve heard this as a justification for suicide.
You’re obviously hearing dangerous voices, Mark. Pray for new ears.***
Pray rather, that the abomination of the Reformation be overcome by the love and the will of God.
http://books.google.com/books?id=rVHP9mM8LGMC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=reformation+suicide&source=web&ots=npiNFy0Lmc&sig=YGHG0fk6kgWZGhtL7CIDA0OrGy0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result gives an indication of the results of the Reformation towards suicide.
***And in a few years, when the OPC or the EPC falls prey to the same things that the PCUSA did, then the people will move to another..
If and when that happens, I trust God to move them to a sound church.
Unity in the face of Rome’s blasphemy is a compromise with the devil. The PCUSA may have fallen victim to the humanistic foolishness of modern life, but the RCC’s embedded idolatry is rancid to the core.
There is not “other mediator.” There is no “another Christ.”***
In other words, a shell game. A bunch of rabbits hippity hopping around in the hopes of finding a secure Calvinist burrow.
And finding that the burrows shift and change and what is secure now is not secure tomorrow.
Just give it up and come back to Christ and be rid of the wiles of men and the devil.
***Insulting me isn’t going to change the fact that Calvinism is essentially arrogant.***
Entirely arrogant. The high school student council who have not amounted to a thing in real life have concocted a fantasy theology in which they only go to Heaven.
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