Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Prove it.
Your "Catholic Teaching" ploy is meaningless.
It's not a ploy. It is a fact.
Your admission: No, I'm not.
Your post is entirely self-contained.
I said, “You guys live in a fantasy world.”
You said, “In the fantasy world where I live, people have given up their irrational hatred of Catholicism and with it their almost-rabid need to lie about the Church founded by Christ.”
Now I say, “As long as you all pray to Jesus The Christ I can never hate you. I don’t even hate The Roman Church ... heretical though it may be. Jesus did not drag his mother around with him and the Apostles and tell every one to honor, revere and ‘worship’ her. (something millions of RCs do as much as they like to deny it)
Nor did Jesus and his Apostles dress in strange (even bizare) clothing so as to set themselves apart (above) the common people.
Nor did he EVER advise His followers to make saints of men and pray to them.
Likewise He did not tell us he would build one church for all men. One Body yes but He dictated seven separate letters to seven different churches in Asia and made no mention that they ought to join up under one POPE (arrrrrrrrgh).
Your church is not biblical. It is an edifice invented by men to control men and rule over them. It is steeped in vain tradition, shot through with heretical doctrines and is obviously off the track.
***Do you actually go into a closet and shut the door? And by telling us this aren’t you breaking the secret?***
Secret. :)
According to their website, they’ve only gotten 7500 baptized members. Maybe this helps explain it.
Fancy bit of mindreading there.
***No, I don’t go into a closet, but I pray and sometimes kneel in solitude, as Christ rightly instructed us.***
Very rightly.
***Men don’t need to kneel in public for God to know their prayers. As He says, He knows what we need before we ask.***
Then why ask? Does it change God’s mind? If everything is predestined, then why bother at all, except as a mechanical exercise that means nothing.
I am a Catholic, a member of the Catholic Church.
‘worship’ her. (something millions of RCs do as much as they like to deny it)
Easy to claim, tough to prove. You should try.
Your church is not biblical.
Again, you must be confused. My Church is the Church that Christ founded, the Catholic Church.
Faulty analogy.
Presbyterians are usually Calvinists. (Unless they decide, individually or as a smaller group that they’re not and then they can be any old thing according to how they interpret the Bible.)
Dignity and Catholics for a Free Choice do not believe what the Catholic Church teaches. (And they can’t just decide, individually or as a smaller group that they don’t believe the teachings of the Catholic Church or they ARE any old thing according to how they interpret the Bible.)
So maybe it should have been said that some Calvinists believe officially that homosexuals should be ordained. The main word would be OFFICIALLY. They are OFFICIALLY accepting and therefore teaching that overt homosexuality is acceptable.
In the fantasy world where I live, people have given up their irrational hatred of Catholicism and with it their almost-rabid need to lie about the Church founded by Christ.I told you it was a fantasy world. Your post proves it.
Yes, it always comes back to that when one doesn’t have a good comeback. Playground taunting is always so charitable.
I notice that the splinters in other’s eyes are so much more visible to others than the logs in their own.
Why would anyone read Calvin if the Scriptures are sufficient? Why would anyone need to?
That is a much better explanation of Christ's meaning. For a minute, I thought you might be a literalist. That image is pretty amusing.
***Men don’t need to kneel in public for God to know their prayers.***
Does that mean that public prayer is evil?
Let’s see what the Bible has to say about it. It wasn’t forbidden on Mount Carmel.
1 Kings 18:
36
At the time for offering sacrifice, the prophet Elijah came forward and said, “LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things by your command.
37
Answer me, LORD! Answer me, that this people may know that you, LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to their senses.”
Ezra
Chapter 10
1
While Ezra prayed and acknowledged their guilt, weeping and prostrate before the house of God, a very large assembly of Israelites gathered about him, men, women, and children; and the people wept profusely.
John 11:
41
So they took away the stone. And Jesus raised his eyes and said, “Father, 8 I thank you for hearing me.
42
I know that you always hear me; but because of the crowd here I have said this, that they may believe that you sent me.”
Acts 20:
35
In every way I have shown you that by hard work of that sort we must help the weak, and keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus who himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
36
Acts 4:
23
After their release they went back to their own people and reported what the chief priests and elders had told them.
24
And when they heard it, they raised their voices to God with one accord and said, “Sovereign Lord, maker of heaven and earth and the sea and all that is in them,
25
you said by the holy Spirit through the mouth of our father David, your servant: ‘Why did the Gentiles rage and the peoples entertain folly?
26
The kings of the earth took their stand and the princes gathered together against the Lord and against his anointed.’
27
Indeed they gathered in this city against your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed, Herod 4 and Pontius Pilate, together with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28
to do what your hand and (your) will had long ago planned to take place.
29
And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and enable your servants to speak your word with all boldness,
30
as you stretch forth (your) hand to heal, and signs and wonders are done through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
31
5 As they prayed, the place where they were gathered shook, and they were all filled with the holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
Acts 12:
11
Then Peter recovered his senses and said, “Now I know for certain that (the) Lord sent his angel and rescued me from the hand of Herod and from all that the Jewish people had been expecting.”
12
When he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John who is called Mark, where there were many people gathered in prayer.
I don’t believe that the Calvinist understanding of the exhortation to pray in public is accurate. We are instructed to pray in public. We are also instructed not to pray as the Pharisees did - with public airs.
When he had finished speaking he knelt down and prayed with them all.
Ooops.
The last sentence: When he had finished speaking he knelt down and prayed with them all - was supposed to be Acts 20:36. Apologies to all.
***MarkBsnr, you asked earlier in this thread a question regarding prayer***
I wish you luck in finding out more good information than I have been able to.
God, from before the foundation of the world, for His own good pleasure in declaring His righteousness, chose some men to redeem by His grace through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Other men He chose to leave in their fallen state.
We know this because 1) Scripture tells us this and 2) this is what happens in life.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Ephesians 1:4-6 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Some men receive faith, and some men don't. Those who receive faith in Christ are grateful for the gift. And those who don't receive faith in Christ don't even want the gift.
The Bible tells us over and over that we cannot merit salvation; that salvation is all of free, unearned grace. And this is God's call, and not men's. It's only through the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit who sanctifies us every day of our lives that men are capable of doing anything God-pleasing.
"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -- John 6:65
I realize this flies in the face of the modernist interpretation of our human will and just how "free" it may or may not be, but that's how it goes. It takes time to remove our humanist blinders and replace them with the glorious, accomplished purpose of God alone.
None of us knows the names of the elect but God. We do, however, have a reasonable, sturdy assurance that if we have received true faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, we are among God's family, the elect.
Since God gave us our children in the first place, we can also be mostly confident our children are part of His family, too.
And if the non-elect don't go to hell then where do they go?
By your question I don't think you understand the definition of "elect."
"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there." -- Isaiah 65;9
"Elect" simply means "of the family of God;" one who has been redeemed by the faith of Christ."
The "elect" will go to heaven when they die, and the "non-elect" will go to hell.
Pretty straight-forward.
The bottom line is that men don't elect themselves; men are elected by God. As God elected the Israelites before Christ, He has now enlarged His elect from one nation to include men from all nations and races, by faith in Christ alone.
Among the blessed. Unless you consider long life, great wealth, and many children to be a curse.
However, they ARE NOT a recognized denomination.
Then God has known of your choice to believe and your neighbor's choice not to believe from before the foundation of the world.
And yet He chose to create and give life to the unbeliever who would eventually burn in hell just like He chose to create and give life to you, because He mercifully, freely gives you faith in Christ while withholding it from the unbeliever.
You simply cannot get around it. God creates those He knows will burn in hell. And He has always known who were His, even before they were born, before they could do "any good or evil."
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11
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