The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Quix]

PROTTY & END TIMES PING LIST PING FOR HEAVEN VISITATION OF DUPLANTIS ON YOUTUBE

Here’s a link to Jesse Duplantis on YOUTUBE.

I don’t know how much of the

HEAVEN CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE GOD KIND

Heavenly visit it includes but it’s evidently a chunk of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q4mCgFCJE

Here’s the list of more of his videos on YouTube . . . his testimony is worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=JESSE+DUPLANTIS&search_type=&aq=f

[MarkBsnr]

***A little lesson. The phrase “the trappings of empire” means that one has the appearance of one, without actually having it.
trapping
[...]

1: caparison 1 —usually used in plural

2plural : outward decoration or dress : ornamental equipment

3plural : outward signs (conventional men with all the trappings…of banality — Robert Plank)

Merriam-Webster.com

caparison

[...]

1 a: an ornamental covering for a horse b: decorative trappings and harness

2: rich clothing : adornment

Merriam-Webster.com***

Applause. I take this as your tribute to me for having explained just what it was that you posted, rather than what I suppose you meant.

Any language lessons, beyond the first hour, is at full tuition rate.

[Petronski]

Ya know, we oughta join the elite.

My vanity plates are on the way!

[MarkBsnr]

***They think that Christ only came for their club of elites.

Sounds like the Calvinists.***

Our favourite bunch of heretics. They are soooo cute.

[MarkBsnr]

Applause, Reggie.

You are beginning to understand that the Church of God is based upon Jesus but carred out by men. No frogmarching involved, just sinful men who do their best with the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

[MarkBsnr]

***Not too loud, Mary. Some here don’t believe that Christ came for all. They think that Christ only came for their club of elites.

Yes Mary, that’s true. There are some who believe, infallibly, that salvation is available only to those “subject to the Roman Pontiff” (”Unam Sanctam”). ***

There is a huge difference between saying that God only comes for the elite selected elect (the luck of the draw) and to say that Jesus came for all men who merely have to believe, be baptized and do the Father’s will.

I still can’t believe that you’re coming down on the side of the Calvinists on a regular basis lately.

[MarkBsnr]

*** thought it might be worthwhile to ping enat in the event there may be someone cowardly enough to indirectly slander him without pinging him.
All the more reason for declining to participate in a nosy third degree.***

I’m certain that you meant something with this post.

[Petronski]

How do Calvinists talk their way out of this:

1Ti 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men:
1Ti 2:2 For kings and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[MarkBsnr]

***“when every milkmaid can interpret Scripture, she will, to her detriment and contrary to the instruction of Scripture itself”

The job of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth. Paul says,

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

The Lord knows who ae His and all He calls will come. None of His will be lost.***

It all comes down to the idea of who is His. The Father will call all those who do His will, not some self identified self satisfied Pharisaical elite.

[MarkBsnr]

***Ya know, we oughta join the elite.

My vanity plates are on the way!***

Anyone with the temerity to put ‘ELECT’ on their licence plates oughta spend eternity in the DMV office.

[MarkBsnr]

***1Ti 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men:
1Ti 2:2 For kings and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. ***

The Calvinists have eliminated more than three quarters of Paul from their Scripture. As well as 90 percent of the Gospels. Forget James and the others. There are a few OT verses that they can dredge up.

First, they will argue that it is not ‘all men’. Then they will argue that the sky is green. Then they will argue that nothing in the Gospels are what they mean except when they mean what Calvin said.

A theology of death is what I have said and what I mean. The proof is greater with every Calvinist post.

[MarkBsnr]

***Or to put it another way, we do not practice Atheistic Christianity.***

I’ve never heard it put this way ever before. Do you mind if I swipe it for future use? It is fantastic.

[MarkBsnr]

***The Holy Ghost “selects” members and grafts them into the Church and works on earth through the Church, that is those members selected and grafted and given their individual gifts.***

We have a division amongst those who believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the betterment of the individual, given as He chooses, and those who believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are of salvation only.

[reagandemocrat]

Just who or what, exactly, are you laughing at?

[Mad Dawg]

Say more, please. I’m distracted being facetious over on that other silly thread.

[Quix]

Typically . . .

—GROSSLY UNTRUE;
—GROSSLY UNBiblical;
—GROSSLY ABSURD
—GROSSLY Off-The-Wall

statements, ideas, assertions, opinions.

[MarkBsnr]

***Say more, please. I’m distracted being facetious over on that other silly thread.***

Which silly thread might that be? Not that I’d be of much use - my Websense proscription is ultimate.

Some of the self labelled Christians belive that they are of the frogmarched elite and therefore they are above anything that that world has to coax them off the narrow path. They may stray, but nothing can prevent them from that limo ride to Heaven and the rest of us can just go to hell. And there’s nothing that we can do about it.

[Mad Dawg]

Which silly thread might that be?

THIS ONE. It's pretty silly.

Okay. Thanks. Now I get what you're saying.

It's about the docetic opinion of the Church and the Calvinist notion of predestination. it's the

Well, I can't be sure, but you pretty much agree with me and I know I"m saved, so I'd guess you are ...

School of where the Church is, to wit: me and my homies, except I'm not too sure about my homies.

[Mad Dawg]

Whoa! The thread got pulled. Evidently it included avian references if you take my meaning. Arros con Pollo. Anyway it was fun while it lasted.

[papertyger]

Dood! Yer among the “Ten Thousand!”