Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
The Catholic Church does not forbid marriage.
Do you think Christ thought Peter was Satan?
Do you have two books in your Bible written by Satan?
Do you think Christ selected Satan as one of His twelve apostles?
There are, however, some anti-Catholic personages on this website who regularly count their "points."
The ones keeping score are the ones who consider this a game.
It’s truly amazing. On Memorial Day weekend I posted a thread in the Religion Forum asking that prayers be posted for those who serve and/or gave their lives in service. None of them posted to that thread. But give them an opportunity to spew their venom against Christ’s Church and they are over 10,000 posts. Says a lot about the false Christ they have created.
No, there's no hate in comparing the Catholic Church to Hitler's chief propagandist.
Not at all.
/sarc
Part of me feels like most of it’s close enough for government work.
Another possibly bigger part of me thinks words will never do and only add to the lack of understanding.
Oh, overstatement? LOL. Isn’t hyperbole for me AVERAGE? LOL.
I really thought, on beginning that post, that perhaps you and I could nudge the mutual understanding a little further and my enlightenment a lot further on the phenomenon. I think that was a grandiose fantasy.
The givens are unlikely to change, regardless.
People on all sides in most contexts tend to change slower than granite in some respects.
It seems abundantly clear that some folks are going to construe some of us Prottys as hating the whole RC org and all RC’s regardless of what we say unless and until we speak THEIR language in THEIR preferred ways affirming THEIR hogwash notions of theology—which, of course—we would never find consistent with Scripture or God or Christianity as we know such and would therefore be anathema to consider doing.
Evidently, the only thing remaning for the bloke in my mirror is to accept that fact at deeper and broader levels and go on down the road . . . chiding when compelled to and mostly ignoring the 2 year old wailing, otherwise.
And, on occasion it does provide a kind of perverse school-yard humor foil. So, all is not lost if any kind of remotely silly rabbit humor is available out of it.
Besides, God has better and more pointed object lessons, than I do.
Sigh.
You said: Remember Goebbels.
Is that like “Remember the Alamo” or “Remember Pearl Harbor”?
I did not realize that Herr Goebbels was worshiped by protestants. But then again it makes sense since it was protestants in Germany who elected Adolph Hitler.
A promising and laudable glimmer of humility!
My Latin teacher repeated things a lot.
Therefore my Latin teacher was a Nazi.
It's simple really.
Not to worry. Those are the words of men as opposed to the words of Jesus.
***The Bible is the recorded Word of the Living God. The words within the Book have been kept intact for thousands of years, long before the RCC was ever thought of. ***
Recorded how? Are you a follower of Mohammed or John Smith? The Bible was never recorded.
***The words within the Book have been kept intact for thousands of years, long before the RCC was ever thought of. ***
The Catholic Church existed from Pentecost, which was BEFORE any books of the New Testament were written.
***One who would diminish the Holy Word diminishes the very contract that gives him life.***
False straw man. We understand what the Word is and we do not deify it.
Walking away from the Church of Christ with Martin Luther does not bode well for one’s soul.
***The RCC seems to nullify the very reason God gave us the Scriptures — to guide us in all truth and love.***
Calvin and the WCF gives us a theology of hate and death. Where is the truth and love in the Reformed?
You said: We understand what the Word is and we do not deify it.
Or to put it another way, we do not practice Atheistic Christianity.
All the more reason for declining to participate in a nosy third degree.
People on all sides in most contexts tend to change slower than granite in some respects.
Is it our business to change people? Serious question.
[Modifications in bold]It seems abundantly clear that some folks are going to construe some of us Prottys as hating the whole RC org and all RC’s regardless of what we say unless and until (A)we speak THEIR language (B)in THEIR preferred ways (C)affirming THEIR hogwash notions of theology—which, of course—we would never find consistent with Scripture or God or Christianity as we know such and would therefore be anathema to consider doing.
I think that some degree of A and B are important. Without them no conversation can take place. I'm not sure conversation is the purpose for many.
(C) I think is a bogus charge.
Here's what I mean: Take "alter Christus". From MY POV it seems like there is an intentional misconstruction of this phrase. Then I think, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's not intentional. But at that point I have to stop because the phrase is used as a mortar shell, to do damage. There seems to be no way, no effort, to say what we think in a way that we recognize it. (Which would be (a) and (b)) Consequentlyh all the hootin' and hollwein' about it seems like mere mud-slinging to us, because the phrase is taken in a way in which we do NOT understand it; that way is presented as what it MUST mean; and then that (to us, perverted) meaning is used as an attack.
And then, forgive me, but when we protest, the "rubber dictionary" comes out, and our protests are rejected without a hearing.
Of course, in some sense, agreement is the "end" of every argument, and we want you to agree with us aw much as you want us to agree with you.
But in another sense, there needs to be some kind of provisional agreement for anything but rock-throwing to take place. What is the purpose, what is the good of interpreting "alter Christus" in a way in which we not only do not recognize but which presents a doctrine which we agree with you all is repellent, and then trying to tar us with that brush? It is doomed to failure and likely to produce resentment and 'more heat than light".
Surely there is enough in our notions of priesthood and Sacrament for us to brawl about. Why make up things to get upset about?
Straw men don't swing back.
“when every milkmaid can interpret Scripture, she will, to her detriment and contrary to the instruction of Scripture itself”
The job of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth. Paul says,
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth
The Lord knows who ae His and all He calls will come. None of His will be lost.
He's writing to a deputy. It's not evident on its face that that is directed to all under Timothy's care.
“He’s writing to a deputy. It’s not evident on its face that that is directed to all under Timothy’s care.”
So, nothing in the 2 letters to Timothy are relevant to us personally today?
John says,
Jhn 17:2-3, “As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
How can you know God unless you study His word where He has chosen to reveal Himself?
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