The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[MarkBsnr]

***”For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus” — 1 Thess. 2:13-14***

For those who would consider such as the WCF to be Scriptural, holy or somehow not sacred and yet of the Holy Spirit (however mixed up that may sound):

1 Tim 4:

3
They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4
For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving,
5
for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer. 2
6
3 If you will give these instructions to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound teaching you have followed.

The instructions of the Church, not some malcontents in the 1930s.

***”Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” — Matthew 4:10***

I might look in the mirror when saying these words.

[Mad Dawg]

I intended to respond to a question you had asked. Evidently I pushed a button.

We have hereon, some RC Reps who seem decidedly INCAPABLE [possibly unwilling—possibly both] of even comprehending the letters that make up the words “PERSONAL” “ATTACK” as defined by the RM and the FR forum rules in general.

Will you agree that this is an overstatement?

Certainly they can read.
In your judgment they (or we, whatever) engage in personal attacks directly or obliquely, and they do so with effective rhetoric.
But, they/we speedily complain when they/we perceive that they are attacked, and they do so with exaggeration.
Protestants are baffled by this because it's (1)hypocritical, (2)thin-skinned (and hypocritical.

Most Protestants of your acquaintance are not hurt by this. But they are offended by the inconsistency (or hypocrisy).

But the strong language used by you and other Protestants has a caring aspect. To let the guilty remain in their guilt is unloving. Protestants are constrained by the FR rules in their ability to respond with appropriate "tough love".

There is a "constraint", even a duty to respond to such behavior for the good of its perpetrator, but one does what one can in the situation.

It is more pleasant to be affirming, but affirmation is not always the best thing to do.

And sometimes what you perceive to be your duty to confront your antagonists with their blindness may have to go on for a very long time before it has any effect.

But you must do your duty to help the most egregious of these people.

Is that more or less it? Is there more or are their places where I didn't get it?

[MarkBsnr]

***Anyone who preaches “another Christ” shows there is little if any truth in them.***

1 Corinthians
Chapter 11
1
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

I understand that your Bible does not contain much of either Corinthians, as indicated by many of your past posts.

Christians are called to imitate Christ; apparently that calling does not extend to the selected elected elite.

[Mad Dawg]

Thanks. That’ll take some chewing.

[Petronski]

But the effort afoot is to paint alter Christus (or alter cristus according to one protestant "scholar") as if Catholicism makes of each priest a fresh new Messiah...as though we are taught there are half a million Sons of God walking the earth.

It's a smear, motivated by hate.

[OLD REGGIE]

I got the mower from Lowes, the day I went they had 10% off, so it was a nice deal. My lawn is easy, no bumps/hills, so it’s a bit quicker, plus these brand new blades are SHARP!

I have the same machine, same store, and same deal. I also bought the mulch kit for about $32-$33. I cant rake or empty bags of grass clippings so, for me, what goes on the ground stays there. :)

I usually ride at speed 2 or 3 and slow down a lot, have many "obstacles" trees, boulders, bushes, bumps, etc. in the way. That explains our speed difference.

I don’t spend any money on wine, women or song either, although I do like my mani-pedis. :D

LOL I had to look it up. Since I like my Micro-Brewery beer I assumed mani-pedis was an exotic wine. :)

[MarkBsnr]

***Free Republic does not set Catholic Dogma either.***

Do you want to tell Dr. E. or shall I?

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: The buzz word “hate” has been used so frequently it is no longer effective.

It is what it is, and many demonstrate that their hearts are full of it every day and on every thread attacking Christ and His Church. Nothing you say can change the truth of it.

[OLD REGGIE]

But, yeah, in principle I agree. It's a wonderful gaffe because you know what he means but he so obviously flubs it.

In many ways he reminds me of Jimmy Carter. All the intellectual credentials but none of the "street smarts" required for survival.

[MarkBsnr]

***Scriptures didn’t come from a particular earthly church, but “holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Peter 1:21)

Individual holy men were selected by the Holy Ghost.***

The NT was selected by the Catholic Church and made canon. There were many holy writings; only some of them were holy enough to be Scripture.

[Petronski]

Tell. Don’t tell.

I predict it will not matter.

Hope I’m wrong.

[MarkBsnr]

***No matter what you say to some here, they don’t believe it. Christ died once and for all for our sins.***

Not too loud, Mary. Some here don’t believe that Christ came for all. They think that Christ only came for their club of elites.

[roamer_1]

A little lesson. The phrase “the trappings of empire” means that one has the appearance of one, without actually having it.

trapping

[...]

1: caparison 1 —usually used in plural

2plural : outward decoration or dress : ornamental equipment

3plural : outward signs (conventional men with all the trappings…of banality — Robert Plank)

Merriam-Webster.com

caparison

[...]

1 a: an ornamental covering for a horse b: decorative trappings and harness

2: rich clothing : adornment

Merriam-Webster.com

[Ron Jeremy]

They think that Christ only came for their club of elites.

Sounds like the Calvinists.

[OLD REGGIE]

1 Timothy 4:3 They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. (The Catholic Church)

Matthew 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men." (Your first "Pope")

Good combo.

[MarkBsnr]

***One has to remember that during the time between the 6th to the 16th century the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church were the only interpretive games in town.***

We didn’t consider it a game. The final destination of one’s soul is at stake and when every milkmaid can interpret Scripture, she will, to her detriment and contrary to the instruction of Scripture itself.

[MarkBsnr]

***Not my dog.

Nice to see you forming sentences again.***

It may not last.

[Mad Dawg]

I suggest:

The "holy Men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" were either Israel or the new Israel, that is, the Church.

There is no "particular earthly church" strictly speaking. There is the Church. It's fullness (on earth) is with those who are in communion with the See of Peter.

The Holy Ghost "selects" members and grafts them into the Church and works on earth through the Church, that is those members selected and grafted and given their individual gifts.

I know Brother JL won't agree, but it seems to me this is a better articulation of our stand and may help to identify and to place in relief the differences.

[Alex Murphy]

St. Stephen is one of seven deacons mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles and was the first martyr. He was stoned to death by followers of Saul for proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ....He is the Patron Saint of Bricklayers and Stone Masons.

Divine proof that God has a sense of humor!

[MarkBsnr]

***Specifying it further could readily disclose his personal identity.

I can’t imagine reasoning any more specious than this.***

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/Nonrecorg/bernadean.html has some illustrious doctorate holders. I’m sure that they all have legitimate Biblical scholarship backgrounds as well.