My only rewrite of that line would be to delete the word "fully."
None of us has all the answers. Perfect understanding simply in not in our DNA. And none of us truly knows any heart other than our own, and even that is sometimes difficult to really understand. We are all susceptible to self-deception.
Trinitarian belief that Christ died for our sins and paid for them in full is the lynch-pin that unites the Christian faith. Anyone in possession of this belief has most likely been gifted by God with His grace to understand and believe.
So, given my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, I am then forced to apply my own Reformed beliefs. Those would be that God ORDAINED that Catholics BE Catholics! :) No matter how vociferous my disagreement with their theology is I don't know how to avoid this fact.
And of course we can't avoid it. God has placed each of us where we're supposed to be today. Tomorrow, God willing, that place will be closer to Him than yesterday.
That is, as of this minute. God can always dispense further sanctifying grace at His leisure. :)
Amen. Exactly as He does for each member of His family.
The point of all this is that YES, Catholics and Protestants, in my view, are looking at the same core from different angles.
The actual question then becomes how much are each of us permitting something to distract us from that singular, uncluttered, God-glorifying view of His grace?
Is calling Mary a "co-redeemer" something that diffuses the glory of God alone and sends it back to the creature? I believe it is.
Is calling priests "another Christ" something that obscures our view of the only mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus? I believe it is.
Is believing that we are justified by works when Scripture tells us we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ a real impediment to more "fully" understanding God's will and purpose in our lives? I believe it is.
Like everyone else around here, I have family and friends who are Roman Catholic and I love them dearly and have always felt we share the Christian perspective. But from my experience on these threads these past few years I've seen our real and tangible differences, and I am less confident of the RCC as a true expositor of God's word and will than I ever was before reading the many errors the RCC preaches, only a few of which I mentioned above.
But primarily I worry that the RCC teaches its members to disregard the Holy Spirit as a personal means of God instructing, leading and comforting His family. Instead the RCC teaches the Holy Spirit speaks to the magisterium and the magisterium then speaks to the congregation through the priest and the sacraments and finally God is filtered down to the individual believer.
How much of that is denying the Holy Spirit's work in our lives? I honestly don't know.
Likewise, so much in the Catechism of the Catholic Religion denies the correct definition of justification and instead almost mocks the grace of God by saying men's own good works help to justify their sins when we are told time and again in Scripture that Christ has justified the ungodly one-time on the cross and thus paid for the sins of His flock in full.
CCF: 1821 -- We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end" and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ.
Whose work are we being rewarded for -- our own or Christ's work on the cross?
To say our own good works earn God's approval rather than believing our good works are 100% the result of God's grace working through us by the indwelling Holy Spirit, according to Christ's righteousness imputed to us and not our own, again seems to deny the Holy Spirit's role and purpose in our lives.
And again this gets back to the incorrect definition of justification by the RCC...
1) According to the RCC, initial justification comes by baptism, whereas the Bible tells us justification is by faith alone.
2) According to the RCC, adults must prepare for justification through both faith and good works, whereas the Bible tells us God justifies the ungodly sinners who believe; therefore good works are the result of salvation, not the cause of it.
3) According to the RCC, the justified are themselves beautiful and holy in God's sight, whereas the Bible tells us the justified are in Christ blameless before God and holy.
4) According to the RCC, justification is furthered by good works and sacraments, whereas the Bible tells us justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God. Only in and by and through Christ is the believer made complete.
5) The RCC teaches that justification is lost through mortal sin, whereas the Bible teaches just the opposite and that all those whom God justifies will be saved from His wrath.
6) The RCC teaches that once the believer's justification is lost through mortal sin it can be regained through the sacrament of penance, whereas the Bible teaches there is no "second justification." Those whom God justifies, He also glorifies.
As so many have said, a Scriptural understanding of why we are justified by Christ and how this transforms our lives goes to the reason we believe in the first place. Saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for God's glory and the welfare of His family.
IMO either a member of the RCC will be led out of the errors of Rome and into the light of the truth, or he will be forgiven his errors just like all redeemed Christians are forgiven all their sins and errors -- by being acquitted through Christ's atonement on the cross alone by God's unmerited, free mercy alone.
But you do not ascribe to that term the correct meaning.
Is calling priests "another Christ" something that obscures our view of the only mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus? I believe it is.
But you do not ascribe to that term the correct meaning.
In both prongs your false dichotomy supposes errors where there are none (except perhaps in your misunderstanding).
I have no doubt that the Catholic Church of your imagination is diabolical. The problem is that the Catholic Church of your imagination IS NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OF REALITY.
It does not. Martin Luther was so concerned by this that he added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28. Nasty stuff, that.
In fact, it says exactly the opposite.
The RCC teaches that justification is lost through mortal sin
While you guys teach that someone who dies in an obvious state of unrepentant serious sin was "never really saved in the first place". However, such people often think they're saved, and people around them think they're saved, so what you are really confessing when you say that is that you can never be sure that anyone is "really saved".
According to the RCC, adults must prepare for justification through both faith and good works
Nope. Sorry. All Trent says is that one's will, "moved and excited by God" cooperates and assents to the grace of justification and is not merely passive.
And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace. -- Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, chapter 8
Please. It is the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
...denies the correct definition of justification...
It denies the heresies of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Machen, et al.
...and instead almost mocks the grace of God...
In your opinion mocks your definition of the grace of God.
I don't think I need to go on.
Perhaps I will anyway, I have not decided.
CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus. Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
AND
Perseverance in faith
CCC 162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith." To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.
You bear false witness against Catholics with stunning facility, and every indication of enjoying it thoroughly.
Wow. Very good post, Dr. E.
Is calling Mary a “co-redeemer” something that diffuses the glory of God alone and sends it back to the creature? I believe it is.
How can anyone think of a “co-” anything when faced with the real thing.
When I Survey the Wondrous Cross
1. When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of glory died,
My richest gain I count but loss,
And pour contempt on all my pride.
2. Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
Save in the death of Christ my God;
All the vain things that charm me most,
I sacrifice them to His blood.
3. See from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down;
Did e’er such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?
4. Were the whole realm of nature mine,
That were a present far too small:
Love so amazing, so divine,
Demands my soul, my life, my all.
Public Domain
When I Survey the Wondrous Cross
1. When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of glory died,
My richest gain I count but loss,
And pour contempt on all my pride.
2. Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
Save in the death of Christ my God;
All the vain things that charm me most,
I sacrifice them to His blood.
3. See from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down;
Did e’er such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?
4. Were the whole realm of nature mine,
That were a present far too small:
Love so amazing, so divine,
Demands my soul, my life, my all.
Public Domain
"As so many have said, a Scriptural understanding of why we are justified by Christ and how this transforms our lives goes to the reason we believe in the first place. Saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for God's glory and the welfare of His family." [excerpt]
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:39-43
Wonderful response, Dr. E.
FK: "The point of all this is that YES, Catholics and Protestants, in my view, are looking at the same core from different angles."
The actual question then becomes how much are each of us permitting something to distract us from that singular, uncluttered, God-glorifying view of His grace? Is calling Mary a "co-redeemer" something that diffuses the glory of God alone and sends it back to the creature? I believe it is.
I agree with you completely. I feel terrible about what has been done to Mary. The Bible says Mary was a Godly woman which means she would have been humble. Such a good woman would never have wanted herself to be raised up in the way she has been.
But primarily I worry that the RCC teaches its members to disregard the Holy Spirit as a personal means of God instructing, leading and comforting His family. Instead the RCC teaches the Holy Spirit speaks to the magisterium and the magisterium then speaks to the congregation through the priest and the sacraments and finally God is filtered down to the individual believer.
Yes, that is the full impression I have gotten also. The Catechism appears to confirm it:
79 The Father's self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."
This appears to virtually mandate that the Holy Spirit must go through the men of the Church in order to reach the believer.
And again this gets back to the incorrect definition of justification by the RCC...
Yes, and I agree with your list and your conclusion. The emphasis is on the physical rather than the spiritual, and on people rather than on God.