Posted on 05/02/2008 2:09:51 PM PDT by Augustinian monk
I'm afraid we're not communicating. I never said nor thought that any Protestants think Jesus is weak. But one of the contenders here said that Jesus on the cross is "feckless".
It is BECAUSE the cross is shame, curse, and humiliation that it is also the locus of unimaginable power, and what appears to the unredeemed or thoughtless eye to be "feckless" is, in truth, Truth and Life grappling with lies and death, and winning.
It was not I that said the crucified Christ was feckless, and the one who did said that that was why Protestants don't generally use crucifixes. I may not understand the reasons of each Protestant for not using a crucifix, but I just gave the reason one Protestant gave me. It is possible that not all Protestants reject crucifixes for the reason that you do.
We do not portray Him dead. The figure of Christ on our crucifixes is dying that we might live.
As you said: a locus of unimaginable power.
Jerome used all kinds of sources for his 'many' translations, some of which were African...
If the Vulgate came from Africa, as you claim, then so did the Authorized Version.
Luther actually added a word to Romans 3:28 to fit his teachings.
As for Tyndale, well, King Henry VIII, in 1531 declared "the translation of the Scripture corrupted by William Tyndale should be utterly expelled, rejected, and put away out of the hands of the people." And in 1543—after his break with Rome—Henry again decreed that "all manner of books of the Old and New Testament in English, being of the crafty, false, and untrue translation of Tyndale . . . shall be clearly and utterly abolished, extinguished, and forbidden to be kept or used in this realm."
Thomas More said searching for errors in the Tyndale bible was like searching for water in the sea.
I didn’t say “check the originals.” I said “check the original Greek.”
The notion is very odd that one part of the body - say a toe - voluntarily separates itself from the rest of the body and then claims that it IS the body and that the rest of the body isn’t. Either that or the toe claims that it is the true body and the rest of the body has lost its way.
Reformation 101.
And every person shall be Judged.
Not by whether they are of the selected elected elite.
Belonging to the Catholic Church does not guarantee salvation, of course not.
It is the Way of salvation; but it is hard and not all will walk the Way until the end.
Mary, I said temporally, not temporarily.
Well, we have the Church of Jesus Christ and then we have variouis and sundry institutions of men that come and go with the tides and the seasons.
How many Reformed churches have been created in the last 100 years? And how many have failed as people hop from church to church like crickets in the evening?
I don’t remember where ‘here’ is.
The census and polling data I googled up indicate that the US adult population is over 26% Catholic and less than 3% Pentecostal/Charismatic.
Not sure why Catholics are closing churches since the Catholic population is climbing.
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I guess crickets like the evening services. They're night owls, so to speak. Hopping night owls.
God wants our love and devotion to Him. Praise and worship is an action which can derive from that love and devotion.
I’ve been to a number of evangelical and a few charismatic churches and observed the praise and worship demonstrated. I wasn’t convinced.
If praise and worship is a public demonstration, then we have the example of the Pharisee standing at the front of the synagogue demonstrating how holy he was, as opposed to the humble sinner at the back.
There is no guaranteed salvation. Some verses which apply (from ScriptureCatholic.com):
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5 - this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
Rom. 8:24 - this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews “may be saved.” Why pray if it’s guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your “hope” (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a “hope” (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.
Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the “hope” to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one “hope” (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and “hope” (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the “hope” (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the “hope” of the gospel which you heard.
Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the “hope” (not the certainty) of His glory.
1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of “hope” in Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our “hope” or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of “hope” (not of certainty) of salvation.
2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good “hope” through grace.
1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our “hope” (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.
1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our “hope” (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her “hope” (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they “may also obtain salvation.” This verse teaches us that even the “elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed “hope,” the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ’s house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our “hope” (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of “hope” (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the “hope” (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 - we have a “hope” that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better “hope” (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our “hope” without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things “hoped” for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living “hope” through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 Peter 1:13 - set your “hope” (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and “hope” are in God.
1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the “hope” that is in you.
1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus “hopes” in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.
I’m sorry if you are offended. It was not directed at you, you know. I have found you to be straightforward and reasonable.
Lies and twisting of my posts sometimes influence my subsequent posts.
***They weren’t called the “Catholic letters” in the first century. There weren’t any “Catholics” in the first century. Just Christians. No denominations, just groups of believers.***
The first allusions to the term Catholic come to us in the late first century written is such a manner that implies a wide usage of the term. For further enlightenment on the term Catholic Letters, we turn to the USCCB.com site:
In addition to the thirteen letters attributed to Paul and the Letter to the Hebrews, the New Testament contains seven other letters. Three of these are attributed to John, two to Peter, and one each to James and Jude, all personages of the apostolic age.
The term “catholic letter” first appears, with reference only to 1 John, in the writings of Apollonius of Ephesus, a second- century apologist, known only from a citation in Eusebius’s Ecclesiastical History. Eusebius himself (A.D. 260-340) used the term to refer to all seven letters.***
I just quoted a pile of verses that in fact state that they did not know of their salvation - they had faith and hope in their salvation.
Big difference.
***The body of Christ is non denominational and universal (catholic), not Roman Catholic.***
Nobody said it was (except for some anti Catholics who try to say that we claim it). But you cannot walk away from the Church and claim that you ae still in it.
***Don’t all Catholics have a statue of Mary standing in a bathtub in their front yards??? Hey, I never knocked on a door, maybe they’re muzlims...***
I’m not aware of Muslims keeping a statue of Mary in a bathtub in their front yards. I assume that we live in different worlds.
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