Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Why Evangelicals are Returning to Rome
CIC ^ | April 2008 | Bob DeWaay

Posted on 05/02/2008 2:09:51 PM PDT by Augustinian monk

Why Evangelicals are Returning to Rome

The Abandonment of Sola Scriptura as a Formal Principle

By Bob DeWaay

The February 2008 edition of Christianity Today ran a cover story about evangelicals looking to the ancient Roman Catholic Church in order to find beliefs and practices.1 What was shocking about the article was that both the author of the article and the senior managing editor of CT claim that this trip back to Rome is a good thing. Says Mark Galli the editor, “While the ancient church has captivated the evangelical imagination for some time, it hasn’t been until recently that it’s become an accepted fixture of the evangelical landscape. And this is for the good.”2 Chris Armstrong, the author of the article who promotes the trip back to the ancient church, claims that because the movement is led by such persons as “Dallas Willard, Richard Foster, and living and practicing monks and nuns,” that therefore, “they are receiving good guidance on this road from wise teachers.” This he claims shows that, “Christ is guiding the process.”3

Apparently, contemporary evangelicals have forgotten that sola scriptura (scripture alone) was the formal principle of the Reformation. Teachings and practices that could not be justified from Scripture were rejected on that principle. To endorse a trip back to these practices of ancient Roman Catholicism is to reject the principle of sola scriptura being the normative authority for the beliefs and practices of the church. In this article I will explore how modern evangelicalism has compromised the principle of sola scriptura and thus paved smoothly the road back to Rome.

New “Reformations” Compromise Sola Scriptura

Today at least three large movements within Protestantism claim to be new “reformations.” If we examine them closely we will find evidence that sola scriptura has been abandoned as a governing principle—if not formally, at least in practice. To have a new reformation requires the repudiation of the old Reformation. That in turn requires the repudiation of the formal principle of the Reformation. That’s where we’ll begin.

Robert Schuller and Rick Warren In 1982, Robert Schuller issued a call for a new Reformation with the publication of his book, Self Esteem: The New Reformation.4 Schuller issued this fervent call: “Without a new theological reformation, the Christian church as the authentic body of Christ may not survive.”5 He was apparently aware that his reformation was of a different type than the original: “Where the sixteenth-century Reformation returned our focus to sacred Scriptures as the only infallible rule for faith and practice, the new reformation will return our focus to the sacred right of every person to self-esteem! The fact is, the church will never succeed until it satisfies the human being’s hunger for self-value.”6 The problem is that Schuller based much of his self-esteem teaching on psychological theory and did not provide a rigorous Biblical defense of the idea. Thus his reformation was a de facto denial of the Reformation principle of Scripture alone.

For example, Schuller criticized the Reformation for a faulty doctrine of sin: “Reformation theology failed to make clear that the core of sin is a lack of self-esteem.”7 But Schuller does not discuss the many verses in the Bible that define sin. For example: “Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness” (1John 3:4). It is not hard to see that Schuller’s reformation constituted the abandonment of sola scriptura as a formal principle.8

In one sense, since Schuller’s call for a reformation based on self-esteem was made 26 years ago, one could argue that it never happened. Of course the idea of self-esteem is still around and taught by many evangelicals, but it never became the one key idea of the church. In another sense, however, Schuller’s reformation was broadened and transferred to others. In 2005 Schuller claimed the following as noted alumni of his institute: Bill Hybels, John Maxwell, Bishop Charles Blake, Rick Warren, Walt Kallestad, and Kirbyjon Caldwell. Bill Hybels himself credited Robert Schuller as a key person who influenced his ideas.9 Though Rick Warren disputes Schuller’s influence on his theology, he has carried forward Schuller’s idea of creating a church that meets people’s felt needs and thus attracts them.

But what interests us here is that Warren is now proposing yet another reformation:

And we've actually created what we call clinic-in-a-box, business-in-a-box, church-in-a-box, and we are using normal people, volunteers. When Jesus sent the disciples – this will be my last point – when Jesus sent the disciples into a village he said, “Find the man of peace.” And he said, “When you find the man of peace you start working with that person, and if they respond to you, you work with them. If they don't, you dust the dust off your shoes; you go to the next village.” Who's the man of peace in any village – or it might be a woman of peace – who has the most respect, they're open and they're influential? They don't have to be a Christian. In fact, they could be a Muslim, but they're open and they're influential and you work with them to attack the five giants. And that's going to bring the second Reformation.10

The problem is that solving the world’s five greatest problems as Warren defines them11 using anyone willing to help regardless of religion, cannot be justified on Biblical grounds. If sola scriptura were the formal principle in Warren’s theology, then he would provide vigorous, Biblical analysis using sound exegesis to ground his reformation on the authority of Scripture. But his teachings and public statements are not characterized by sound Biblical exegesis.

As I documented in my book on the Purpose Driven Movement, Warren’s reformation compromises sola scriptura in many significant ways.12These include the use of loose paraphrases that go so far as to change the meaning of various passages, the integration of unbiblical, human wisdom, serious misinterpretation of Scripture, and an unbiblical philosophy of ministry. Warren has an orthodox statement about the authority of Scripture on his church Web site. In fact, most evangelicals other than those who convert to Roman Catholicism do not overtly reject Scripture alone. But is it practiced?13

There is reason to believe that Warren’s reformation is the continuation of Schuller’s in a modified form. Warren has made finding one’s purpose the lynchpin of his teachings and practices. Finding purpose may not be identical to finding self esteem, but the idea is at least a first cousin. Also, both concepts derive their power from outside Scripture.

C. Peter Wagner

Another proposed reformation of the church is C. Peter Wagner’s New Apostolic Reformation. As I argued in a recent CIC article,14 Wagner sees the presence of apostles who speak authoritatively for God as the key to the church fulfilling her role in the world. He even speaks approvingly of the “apostles” of the Roman Catholic Church. Wagner and the thousands of apostles and prophets in his movement have shown as little regard for sola scriptura as any non Roman Catholic Christian group apart from the Quakers. So their reformation is a de facto repudiation of the Reformation. Their writings and messages show little or no concern for sound, systematic Biblical exegesis. If they were to adopt sola scriptura as a formal principle and rigorously use it to judge their own teachings and practices, their movement would immediately come to an end.

The Emergent Church

The third (if we count Warren’s reformation as a current replacement for Schuller’s) proposed reformation is that of the Emergent Church. In their case sola scriptura dies a thousand deaths. As we saw in the previous issue of CIC, Rob Bell denies it using the same arguments that Roman Catholics have used. The Emergent Church and its postmodern theology is noteworthy for being a non-Catholic version of Christianity that forthrightly assaults the type of use of the Bible that characterizes those who hold sola scriptura as the formal principle of their theology. The Emergent Church adherents reject systematic theology, and thus make using the principle impossible. For example, defending the doctrine of the Trinity using Scripture requires being systematic. I have read many Emergent/postmodern books as I write a new book, and each of them attacks systematic theology in some way.

The Emergent Reformation rests on the denial of the validity of foundationalism. Gone are the days when Christians debated the relative merits of evidential and presuppositional apologetics—debates based on the need for a foundation for one’s theology. Either one started with evidence for the authority of Scripture and then used the Bible as the foundation of one’s theology; or one presupposed the Bible as the inerrant foundation. But today both approaches are mocked for their supposed naïveté. To think that one can know what the Bible means in a non-relativistic way is considered a throwback to now dead “modernity.” The Emergent mantra concerning the Bible is “we cannot know, we cannot know, we cannot know.” Furthermore, in their thinking, it is a sign of arrogance to claim to know. For the postmodern theologian, sola scriptura is as dead and buried as a fossilized relic of bygone days.

So the Protestant (if the term even means anything today) world is characterized by reformations that have either rejected or compromised sola scriptura as the formal principle for their theology. No wonder few voices of concern are raised at Christianity Today’s proposed trip back to Rome to find beliefs and practices. Once sola scriptura has been rejected, there remain few reasons not to go back to Rome. If religious traditions can be considered normative, then why not embrace those with the longest history?

Dallas Willard Leads Us Back to Rome

The cover of the CT article reads, “Lost Secrets of the Ancient Church.” It shows a person with a shovel digging up a Catholic icon. What are these secrets? Besides icons, lectio divina and monasticism are mentioned. Dallas Willard, who is mentioned as a reliable guide for this process, has long directed Christians to monastic practices that he himself admits are not taught in the Bible.15 Willard pioneered the rejection of sola scriptura in practice on the grounds that churches following it are failures. He writes, “All pleasing and doctrinally sound schemes of Christian education, church growth, and spiritual renewal came around at last to this disappointing result. But whose fault was this failure?”16 The “failure,” according to Willard is that, “. . . the gospel preached and the instruction and example given these faithful ones simply do not do justice to the nature of human personality, as embodied, incarnate.”17 So what does this mean? It means that we have failed because our gospel had too little to do with our bodies.

The remedy for “failure” says Willard is to find practices in church history that are proven to work. But are these practices taught in the Bible? Willard admits that they are not by using an argument from silence, based on the phrase “exercise unto godliness” in 1Timothy 4:7. Here is Willard’s interpretation:

“Or [the possibility the phrase was imprecise] does it indicate a precise course of action he [Paul] understood in definite terms, carefully followed himself, and called others to share? Of course it was the latter. So obviously so, for him and the readers of his own day, that he would feel no need to write a book on the disciplines of the spiritual life that explained systematically what he had in mind.”18

But what does this do to sola scriptura? It negates it. In Willard’s theology, the Holy Spirit, who inspired the Biblical writers, forgot to inspire them to write about spiritual disciplines that all Christians need. If this is the case, then we need spiritual practices that were never prescribed in the Bible to obtain godliness.

Having determined the insufficiency of Scripture, Willard looks to human potential through tapping into spiritual powers: “It is the amazing extent of our ability to utilize power outside ourselves that we must consider when we ask what the human being is. The limits of our power to transcend ourselves utilizing powers not located in us—including of course, the spiritual—are yet to be fully known.”19 So evidently our spirituality is to be discovered by various means that are not revealed by God in the Bible.

If the Bible is insufficient in regard to the spiritual practices that we need in order to become sanctified, where do we find them? Here is Willard’s solution: “Practicing a range of activities that have proven track records across the centuries will keep us from erring.”20 This, of course leads us back to Rome. Catholic mystics spent centuries experimenting with spiritual practices without regard to the Biblical justification for such practices. If evangelicals are going to join them in rejecting Scripture alone, AGAIN they might as well not reinvent the wheel—go to the masters of mystical asceticism.

Willard admires the monastics and suggests that solitude is one of the most important disciplines. He says, “This factual priority of solitude is, I believe, a sound element in monastic asceticism. Locked into interaction with the human beings that make up our fallen world, it is all but impossible to grow in grace as one should.”21 If it is impossible to grow in grace without solitude, why are we not informed of this fact by the Biblical writers? In Willard’s mind sola scriptura is a false idea, so therefore God failed to reveal to us the most important way to grow in grace! Willard says that solitude is most important even while admitting that it is dangerous:

But solitude, like all the disciplines of the spirit, carries its risks. In solitude, we confront our own soul with its obscure forces and conflicts that escape our attention when we are interacting with others. Thus, [quoting Louis Bouyer] “Solitude is a terrible trial, for it serves to crack open and bust apart the shell of our superficial securities. It opens out to us the unknown abyss that we all carry within us . . . and discloses the fact that these abysses are haunted.”22

This danger was shown by the early desert fathers, some of whom came under demonic torment in their solitude. Before following people whose practices are dangerous and not prescribed in the Bible, wouldn’t we be better off sticking to the safe ground of revealed truth?

Spirituality for the Unconverted

The fact is that the various ancient practices of the Roman Catholic Church were and are not unique to Christianity. The meditative techniques that make people feel closer to God work for those who do not even know God. Thomas Merton (who is recommended by Dallas Willard) went to the East to find spiritual practices. They work just as well for those who do not know Christ, probably better. Many ancient Roman Catholic practices were invented at times when many illiterate pagans were ushered into the church, sometimes at the point of a sword. Those pagans were not exactly the type to search the Scriptures daily in order to find the things of God.

But why are literate American Christians running away from sola scriptura at a time when searching the Scriptures (especially using computer technology) has never been easier? On this point I am offering my opinion, but there is good evidence for it. I believe that the lack of gospel preaching has allowed churches to fill up with the unregenerate. The unregenerate are not like “newborn babes who long for the pure milk of the word” (1Peter 2:2). Those who have never received saving grace cannot grow by the means of grace. Those who are unconverted have not drawn near to God through the blood of Christ. But with mysticism, it is possible to feel near to God when one is far from Him. Furthermore, the unconverted have no means of sanctification because they do not have the imputed righteousness of Christ as their starting point and eternal standing. So they end up looking for man-made processes to engineer change through human works because they have nothing else.

Those who feel empty because of the “pragmatic promises of the church-growth movement” as the CT article calls them, may need something far more fundamental than ancient, Catholic, ascetic practices. They may very well need to repent and believe the gospel. Those who are born of the Spirit will find that this passage is true: “His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence” (2Peter 1:3).

Conclusion

Perhaps the best antidote to rejecting sola scriptura and going back to Rome would be a careful study of the Book of Hebrews. It describes a situation that is analogous to that which evangelicals face today. The Hebrew Christians were considering going back to temple Judaism. Their reasons can be discerned by the admonitions and warnings in Hebrews. The key problem for them was the tangibility of the temple system, and the invisibility of the Christian faith. Just about everything that was offered to them by Christianity was invisible: the High Priest in heaven, the tabernacle in heaven, the once for all shed blood, and the throne of grace. At the end of Hebrews, the author of Hebrews points out that they have come to something better than mount Sinai: “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel” (Hebrews 12:22-24). All of these things are invisible.

But the life of faith does not require tangible visibility: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). The Roman Catholic Church has tangibility that is unmatched by the evangelical faith, just as temple Judaism had. Why have faith in the once-for-all shed blood of Christ that is unseen when you can have real blood (that of the animals for temple Judaism and the Eucharistic Christ of Catholicism)? Why have the scriptures of the Biblical apostles and prophets who are now in heaven when you can have a real, live apostle and his teaching Magisterium who can continue to speak for God? The similarities to the situation described in Hebrews are striking. Why have only the Scriptures and the other means of grace when the Roman Church has everything from icons to relics to cathedrals to holy water and so many other tangible religious articles and experiences?

I urge my fellow evangelicals to seriously consider the consequences of rejecting sola scriptura as the formal principle of our theology. If my Hebrews analogy is correct, such a rejection is tantamount to apostasy.

Issue 105 - March / April 2008

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

End Notes

Chris Armstong, “The Future lies in the Past” in Christianity Today, February 2008. I wrote a critique of Armstrong’s article here: http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/3174/Bob_DeWaay Mark Galli, “Ancient-Future People” in Christianity Today February 2008, 7. Armstrong, 24. Robert H. Schuller, Self Esteem The New Reformation, (Waco: Word, 1982). Ibid. 25. Ibid. 38. Ibid. 98. I wrote an article some years ago about Schuller’s self-esteem reformation: Robert Schuller, Your Church as a Fantastic Future, (Ventura: Regal Books, 1986) On pages 227, 228 Hybels testifies of Schuller’s influence. http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80 page 16. [Accessed 8/27/2005] The five are spiritual darkness, lack of servant leaders, poverty, disease, and ignorance. Bob DeWaay, Redefining Christianity—Understanding the Purpose Driven Movement, (21st Century Press: Springfield, MO, 2006). My claim is that sola scriptura no longer serves as the formal principle of their theology in practice. This is seen whenever important religious claims (such as the need for a reformation) are not accompanied by rigorous, systematic, Biblical exegesis on the topic at hand. I say that because by implication, Scripture alone means that beliefs and practices are normative if—and only if—they can be shown to be Biblical. Binding and loosing have to be in accordance with the teachings of Christ and His apostles. Warren’s practice belies his statement of faith.

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue103.htm I critique Dallas Willard’s theology as taught in his popular book The Spirit of the Disciplines in CIC Issue 91: http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue91.htm Dallas Willard, The Spirit of the Disciplines, Understanding How God Changes Lives, (HarperCollins: New York, 1991). 18. Ibid. emphasis his. Ibid. 95. Ibid. 62. Ibid. 158. Ibid. 162. Ibid. 161.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; evangelicals; rome
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 1,021-1,0401,041-1,0601,061-1,080 ... 1,381-1,394 next last
To: narses; swmobuffalo

If the original inspired Greek texts were not preserved by the Godhead, then the ‘Holy Writ’ may have become profane.

I stand by my statement.

I have more faith in something inspired and preserved by God than something written and preserved by man.


1,041 posted on 05/09/2008 9:08:01 PM PDT by Fichori (FreeRepublic.com: Watch your step!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1039 | View Replies]

To: swmobuffalo

“Right, one flock, one shepherd. Believers and Jesus.”

Close, Our Lord also appointed Apostles and priests. You are tired, well get rest.


1,042 posted on 05/09/2008 9:09:04 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1040 | View Replies]

To: Fichori

What organized group collected, sifted, sorted and numbered the Holy Writ?


1,043 posted on 05/09/2008 9:09:58 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1041 | View Replies]

To: narses; swmobuffalo

“Right, one flock, one shepherd. Believers and Jesus.”

"Close, Our Lord also appointed Apostles and priests. You are tired, well get rest."


These must be the priests he appointed:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1st Peter 1:1-2

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1st Peter 2:5


Those who are bought with the Blood of Christ are a Holy priesthood.
1,044 posted on 05/09/2008 9:24:58 PM PDT by Fichori (FreeRepublic.com: Watch your step!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1042 | View Replies]

To: narses; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg
"What organized group collected, sifted, sorted and numbered the Holy Writ?"

It was not because group 'X' 'collected, sifted, sorted and numbered' the texts, its in spite if them.

Thats the difference between God preserving something and man preserving something.
1,045 posted on 05/09/2008 9:31:05 PM PDT by Fichori (FreeRepublic.com: Watch your step!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1043 | View Replies]

To: Fichori

“Thats the difference between God preserving something and man preserving something...”

And yet you deny that God has preserved His Universal Church with the same Universal Truth always taught? As opposed to the cacophony of heresies masquerading as churches in the Prot world?


1,046 posted on 05/09/2008 9:41:53 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1045 | View Replies]

To: narses; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg
"And yet you deny that God has preserved His Universal Church with the same Universal Truth always taught? As opposed to the cacophony of heresies masquerading as churches in the Prot world?"

Your words not mine.

I believe the Church Christ created has been preserved.

That Church consists of those who believe on Jesus Christ and have accepted him as their Savior and Lord.


Tell me about your 'universal church':

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

John 6:65-66


1,047 posted on 05/09/2008 9:59:40 PM PDT by Fichori (FreeRepublic.com: Watch your step!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1046 | View Replies]

To: Fichori

Tell me about yours. What denomination is it?


1,048 posted on 05/09/2008 10:09:05 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1047 | View Replies]

To: narses
"Tell me about yours. What denomination is it?"

This is my Church:

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:5


Of what denomination is Jesus Christ?

1,049 posted on 05/09/2008 10:42:00 PM PDT by Fichori (FreeRepublic.com: Watch your step!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1048 | View Replies]

To: Mad Dawg
Who, looking at an acorn, would know that it had an oak in it? And acorn bears little resemblance to an oak after all.

Not so...The oak tree produces more little acorns...Your oak tree grows bananas...Thanks God, there are still oak trees that produce acorns...

1,050 posted on 05/10/2008 3:38:31 AM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1030 | View Replies]

To: swmobuffalo
Rush likes to say,"It ain't bragging if you can do it." I've always disagreed with that.

The fact that the Catholic Church claims to be “The” church is arrogance. opinion that the Catholic Church ...." is an arrogant opinion.

I'd answer some who hold it are arrogant and some hold it because they are arrogant. But it is possible to think the Mount Sinai was the mountain on which the law was given, not for any reward or becasue of any intrinsic merit but because of God's grace. In fact, I've read that one Talmudic account for the choice of Sinai was precisely BECAUSE it was NOT a very special mountain. An undistinguished and homely mountain would be less likely to distract from the splendor of the Torah.

The fact that because other Christians are not acceptable because we members won’t kowtow to the Pope is arrogance.

If this opinion is held by anyone, he does not understand Catholic teaching.

If I may make a general observation: If you come to a religion thread on a forum given to the discussion of divergent opinions, you can expect to find people who hold opinions you find arrogant. The people themselves may or may not be arrogant, and as it is not impossible that I am mistaken, so it is not impossible that you also might possibly be mistaken.

But neither of us will find out if we focus on what we take as arrogance in our disputants or the opinions they put forth, or rest our arguments on the seeming arrogance of the "facts" of those who disagree with us.

1,051 posted on 05/10/2008 3:51:00 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1035 | View Replies]

To: Iscool
Okay. What is this. IS it impossible or against the tenets of Protestantism to follow up on an argument?

AN argument was made that the Catholic Church cannot be "the" Church because it looks so different from the primitive Church.

My response was not intended to address every possible argument against my side's self-concept. It was intended to address one and only one particular argument.

My argument was, expressed in a comparison, that the fact of apparent change over a couple of millenia is no argument of essential change.

In response if have gotten two, "But there was TOO an essential change."

I KNOW you think that. That's why we're here doing this.

Am I to understand in the restatement without further support of one of your side's basic contentions that you all acknowledge that the argument from change of appearance is bankrupt? I certainly have seen no defense of it.

Your side brought up the appearance argument. Your side seems to be abandoning it.

1,052 posted on 05/10/2008 3:57:57 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1050 | View Replies]

To: narses
Duh. Christ founded ONE Church not many.

Jesus Christ did not found a church...Jesus founded disciples who became (because they were disciples) the church(es)...

No one joined the church...They were added as they became believers...

Churches already existed when people started turning to Jesus...And men started creating their own churhes just as quickly...The Roman, pagan church as well, was very alive and well at the time...

Constantine combined a large religious group with the pagan church and it turned out to be your religion...That's NOT the church that Jesus founded...

You claim your church fathers are direct descendents of the Apostles...Maybe some were...Maybe not...Maybe they were some of the ones that were run out of the church by Paul and others...Your claim of being the one, true church is meaningless...The fact that you can produce a (broken) lineage back to Apostles is meaningless as well...No one knows how accurate that lineage record is...

The reason your church lasted so long and was/is as powerful as it was is due to it's alliance with pagan and secular gov'ts....

1,053 posted on 05/10/2008 4:30:56 AM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1037 | View Replies]

To: Marysecretary

I’ve noticed that Protestants don’t usually depict Jesus at all. Catholic representations go all the way back to Apostolic times with the icons and the Chi Rho inscriptions.


1,054 posted on 05/10/2008 5:22:37 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1014 | View Replies]

To: Marysecretary

***No matter where you go, you will always find someone who is ‘in the flesh.’ I’ve seen the same women at one church always getting into ‘holy laughter.’***

An old saying is that the only thing more repulsive than those who attack the government are those who attack the government. I find much Protestant ‘praise’ to be either forced or dull.


1,055 posted on 05/10/2008 5:27:04 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1013 | View Replies]

To: Forest Keeper

***Yes, and I agree with your list and your conclusion. The emphasis is on the physical rather than the spiritual, and on people rather than on God.***

Jesus left His Church and a list of instructions. We must follow them all and not cherry-picked verse.


1,056 posted on 05/10/2008 5:29:05 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1017 | View Replies]

To: Iscool
***ἐλπίς elpis el-pece' Fromἔλπω elpō which is a primary word (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstract or concrete) or confidence: - faith, hope. There...Cleared that up... Are you sure you figured out why Jesus died???*** There is a difference between confidence and surety. It may be lost on you but that difference exists nonetheless. I understand why Jesus suffered, died, was buried, descended to hell and rose again. He ascended to Heaven and is seated on the right hand of the Father. He shall come again to Judge the living and the dead. How shall the splintered Protestant groups be Judged? What are you doing or not doing in memory of Him?
1,057 posted on 05/10/2008 5:32:07 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1021 | View Replies]

To: swmobuffalo

***“I just quoted a pile of verses that in fact state that they did not know of their salvation - they had faith and hope in their salvation.”

Your interpretation of the verses.

And as for “Catholic letters” try, “catholic letters”. Big difference.***

Y’all just don’t get it. It’s not my interpretation - it’s the interpretation of the Church of Jesus Christ. I am not my own Pope.

It was capitalized, by the way.


1,058 posted on 05/10/2008 5:33:47 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1023 | View Replies]

To: Fichori

***But an Oak Tree still has Acorn DNA in it.***

There are many Protestant denominations and entities that have no Christian DNA in them.


1,059 posted on 05/10/2008 5:35:21 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1031 | View Replies]

To: swmobuffalo

***The fact that the Catholic Church claims to be “The” church is arrogance.***

Nope, it’s historical and spiritual fact, despite all the whining and hysteria.


1,060 posted on 05/10/2008 5:36:38 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1035 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 1,021-1,0401,041-1,0601,061-1,080 ... 1,381-1,394 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson