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To: francke
>>>Smith was proven to be a complete fraud by the messy situation with the Book of Abraham.

Do you realize that your link posits several theories. Some of which actually support the idea Smith received it by revelation?

You'll have to find another source that is all anti to support your claim that Jospeh Smith was a complete fraud.

As for comparing archeological texts which seems to be the topic of the thread (and which I agree should not be caucus) Joseph Smith did a pretty good job of getting the ancient practices and beliefs correctly, which supports his claim that he actually did restore the primitive Christian Church.

Here is just one example from the Book of Abraham comparing to other texts...

_______________________________________

The "Angel(s) of the Presence"

We have seen in this chapter that Yahweh was originally thought of as both God and angel, but what of this strange title, "Angel of the Presence"? Barker intimates that this was once one of Yahweh's titles as well, which was later given to the archangels.313 Segal explains that whoever was designated as the chief angel in the Israelite literature was also given the title "Angel of the Presence," and was regarded as superior to the others. 314

Accordingly, Luke and the apocryphal book of Tobit refer to angels who stand in the presence of God. "And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God . . . ." (Luke 1:19, KJV) "I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand in attendance on the Lord and enter his glorious presence." (Tobit 12:15, NEB) However, Isaiah is the only Biblical writer to use the phrase "angel of his presence." Speaking of the goodness of Yahweh toward the house of Israel, the Hebrew text of Isaiah 63:8-9 (followed by the KJV) reads: "For he [Yahweh] said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them . . . ." It is clear from the text that Yahweh saved his people by the "angel of his presence," but it is not at all evident that Yahweh was equated with this angel, although this is most certainly the case. The ancient translators of the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint or LXX, translated in the second and third centuries B.C.) knew of this tradition, and therefore made no reference to the "angel of his presence," but translated the verse in question as, "It was no envoy, no angel, but he himself that delivered them." (Isaiah 63:9, NEB) Clearly, Yahweh was the "angel of his presence."

Jesus as Yahweh and the "Angel of the Presence" The belief in Yahweh as Israel's second God, the chief angel, was the basis of early Christian Christology. But even more to the point is Jean Daniélou's claim that in certain early Jewish Christian traditions both Jesus and the Holy Spirit were believed to be the two "Angels of the Presence transcending all others."315

Conclusion

We have established that Abraham's identification of Yahweh with "the angel of his presence" was consistent with the earliest Israelite traditions, and with the earliest Christian traditions. But if we assume, as the critics of the Book of Abraham do, that Joseph Smith created this remarkable document by applying his fertile imagination to the sources he had at hand, how did he come up with this strange designation for Yahweh? The only Biblical source for the phrase would have been Isaiah 63:9, but we have seen that this verse gives no hint that Yahweh was equated with "the angel of his presence." This conclusion can only be drawn when the Greek text is compared with the Hebrew. However, it seems unlikely that Joseph Smith had access to a translation of the Septuagint, so again we are at a loss to find a source for the Prophet's teaching. Consider also that we have not been able to find even a single case where Joseph Smith used this title to refer to Yahweh, apart from this solitary passage in the Book of Abraham, or even to the Septuagint. Therefore, we are forced to conclude that Joseph Smith was inconceivably lucky in his choice of words, or the Patriarch Abraham actually chose these words to describe his God.

Source- "Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity"

73 posted on 04/29/2008 8:37:19 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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To: Rameumptom
As for comparing archeological texts which seems to be the topic of the thread (and which I agree should not be caucus) Joseph Smith did a pretty good job of getting the ancient practices and beliefs correctly, which supports his claim that he actually did restore the primitive Christian Church.

Yeah right...."he actually did restore the primitive Christian Church"...but did it in King James English. Uh huh...

89 posted on 04/29/2008 10:17:32 AM PDT by Osage Orange (molon labe)
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To: Rameumptom

***The belief in Yahweh as Israel’s second God, the chief angel, was the basis of early Christian Christology.***

Umm, no it wasn’t.

Early Christian Christology concentrated on the Triune God as told to us by Jesus and defined in detail by the Church Fathers.

***We have established that Abraham’s identification of Yahweh with “the angel of his presence” was consistent with the earliest Israelite traditions, and with the earliest Christian traditions.***

We most certainly have not. I see where L. Ron Hubbard is a theological descendent of Joseph Smith.


98 posted on 04/29/2008 10:49:13 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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