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Ancient writings support LDS doctrine and teachings (LDS Caucus)
Deseret News ^ | Monday, Apr. 28, 2008 | By Rodger L. Hardy

Posted on 04/29/2008 6:06:04 AM PDT by restornu

Ancient writings unearthed in the last century and a half, primarily in Egypt, are lending support to doctrines and teachings of Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Brigham Young University professor of antiquities said Sunday.

C. Wilford Griggs, who has written extensively on Egypt and is working on excavating Christian burial grounds in Egypt, said scholars are now admitting that "Joseph Smith got into the antiquities" before experts in the field began their discoveries, but they won't accept his explanation.

Smith, an uneducated farm boy, claimed he translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates using instruments given him by an angel, but scholars are refusing to believe that, Griggs said during a fireside, "Joseph Smith and the Egyptian Connection," at the Pleasant Grove Manila Stake Center. Some of the ancient writings have been found in the past few years.

Many scholars are now admitting that the book accepted as scripture by church members is an ancient book, but as one scholar of antiquities told Griggs, he had no problem with the gold plates and Smith's story would be acceptable "if you'd get rid of that angel."

Anciently, the fountain of Christian knowledge was Egypt and the Mediterranean region and for about 1,000 years 90 percent of the people were in the faith "until they were converted to Islam by the sword," he said.

"We are being flooded with (ancient) writings," Griggs said, describing many as coming from the biblical New Testament period. Many of the writings, now totaling about 8,000, are on papyri, but others are on metal plates. None are exactly alike, which lends historical credence to the finds.

The apostles scattered throughout the known world and established pockets of Christianity after the time of Jesus Christ, including Egypt, he said. Some of the best early Christian records were found in Egypt, where they survived because of the climate.

The traditional concept that the Bible is complete came about 400 A.D., he said. Before then Christians knew that many other writings existed.

Many of the Christian teachings found in Egyptian digs that are shared in common with Smith's teachings have to do with the temple "and how the heavens can be open to us," Griggs said.

Among those findings is the teaching of baptism by proxy for folks who have died without learning of Christ and his gospel, which centers on the resurrection.

Anciently, baptism was known as a "sealing" to go to heaven, he said. The word "sealing" is used today in LDS temples in similar fashion.

Most of the writings which have now been found were secret anciently and held back from the people until they proved their worthiness.

Some speak of the potential of their divinity, also a common theme Smith taught, which the first LDS prophet said was given to him by revelation.

"Several of the gospels ... show that revelation was alive and well in the ancient world. Revelation was a keystone," Griggs said.

Yet centuries later, revelation and temples were denounced by religious leaders, including Augustine, as unnecessary.


TOPICS: Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: brighamyoung; egypt; heresy; josephsmith; lds; mormon; mormoncoffee; moroni
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To: restornu; All
My faith is secure in the Book of Mormon but when one print an article like this and with out names or footnotes it would have been best if he did not get carried away and make sure all the is’ are dotted and t’s crossed.

This is just a report about a "missionary fireside" held by Griggs. It is only an update to let Mormons know how missionary dollars are being spent and to get prospective investigators and missionaries interested. It was never meant to be fact filled presentation, but instead gives Mormons a general idea of what is going on. It will be years before anything is published giving the minute details.

It is not your fault, but instead the Deseret New's fault for presenting this as a news article and not just a report on a missionary fireside.

81 posted on 04/29/2008 9:40:51 AM PDT by Between the Lines (I am very cognizant of my fallibility, sinfulness, and other limitations.)
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To: allmendream
Native Americans are not Semitic? Did you see Blazing Saddles?
82 posted on 04/29/2008 9:41:57 AM PDT by HenpeckedCon (Deport them all... Let God sort them out!)
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To: Between the Lines

MormonTimes.com is produced by the Deseret News in Salt Lake City, Utah.


83 posted on 04/29/2008 9:42:21 AM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu

This one is a gutbuster.


84 posted on 04/29/2008 9:43:51 AM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: HenpeckedCon
“We let dem go, dey darker dan us!”

Yes, it was a rather funny (yet subtle) goof on the Mormons. Mel Brooks is a comedic genius.

Usually Hollywood has Italians play Indians; my father refers to them as “Wopahoe’s”. Iron Eyes Cody was the most famous, he was Mr. Indian with the single tear shed for the earth in a famous commercial. His parentage was Sicilian.

You may recall a scene from “True Romance” with Dennis Hopper and Christopher Walkin............

85 posted on 04/29/2008 9:47:24 AM PDT by allmendream (Life begins at the moment of contraception. ;))
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To: Boagenes

That must have been how Caiaphas felt when dealing with the early saints!


86 posted on 04/29/2008 9:49:51 AM PDT by restornu
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To: allmendream

Wopahoe’s, LOL! I didn’t know the word, Schwartzers was an Indian word.


87 posted on 04/29/2008 9:53:23 AM PDT by HenpeckedCon (Deport them all... Let God sort them out!)
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To: restornu
We have been over this before, resty...

The evidence, and egyptologists, state that the Book of Abraham is a fraud...It was a headline in the New York Times.

The funeral papyri, when translated properly, says nothing about Abraham and contains nowhere near the volume of words found in the Book of Abraham.

88 posted on 04/29/2008 10:01:32 AM PDT by pby
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To: Rameumptom
As for comparing archeological texts which seems to be the topic of the thread (and which I agree should not be caucus) Joseph Smith did a pretty good job of getting the ancient practices and beliefs correctly, which supports his claim that he actually did restore the primitive Christian Church.

Yeah right...."he actually did restore the primitive Christian Church"...but did it in King James English. Uh huh...

89 posted on 04/29/2008 10:17:32 AM PDT by Osage Orange (molon labe)
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To: restornu
MormonTimes.com is produced by the Deseret News in Salt Lake City, Utah.

I realize that, but when you click the link at the beginning of this thread it takes you to an article titled "Mormon Media Observer: Mormons have been framed -- again" and not this article.

90 posted on 04/29/2008 10:22:55 AM PDT by Between the Lines (I am very cognizant of my fallibility, sinfulness, and other limitations.)
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To: wagglebee; wideawake
I did read somewhere really recently (and dang! I can't find it!) that, partly beause of the aggressive pitch of Islam-promoters, African Christians are re-asserting that their faith has indigentous African roots, -- that is, that it is not entirely a product of European missionary efforts.

The Church in Africa goes back to the earliest days. Ethiopian Catholics and Coptics, with their priests and bishops, trace their apostolic orders back to the Ethiopian eunuch, the official of the Candace (Queen), baptized by Philip. This history is recorded in the Book of Acts.

Still in the 1st century, in about the year 43, Mark the Evangelist started the Church of Alexandria. Alexandria was one of the true hubs of Christian expansion, being equal, as a patrriarchal city, to Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, and Constantinople.

At first the church in Alexandria was mainly Greek-speaking, but by the end of the 2nd century the scriptures and Liturgy had been translated into African languages as Christianity spread across north-western Africa from Egypt to Carthage and ever further west, through the area today known as the Maghreb.

I read somewhere that at one time there were 200 Dioceses in Africa.

Important Africans who influenced the early development of Christianity includes such intellectual and spiritual giants as Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Cyprian, Athanasius and Augustine of Hippo. (Augustine was born in Tagaste, in present-day Algeria.) Most of them wrote in Greek, which was the "international language" of the entire Mediterranean basin.

In the middle of the 3rd century the church in Egypt suffered severely in the persecution under the Emperor Decius. Many Christians fled from the towns into the desert. This was the beginning of Christian monasticism, which over the following years spread from Africa and became a major influence in the Christian world.

Since Alexandria also gave us the Greek Septuagint (the basis for most modern translations of the Old Testament), I'd say the "African influence" was huge.

I guess we don't hear much of that perspective now, because the Islamic invasion and subjugation annihilated it (except for surviving pockets) about 1400 years ago.

91 posted on 04/29/2008 10:23:35 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: restornu

bttt for later


92 posted on 04/29/2008 10:25:53 AM PDT by bmwcyle (I always rely on God and Guns in that order)
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To: Osage Orange

As far as “restoring” the primitive Church...

My understanding is that there is no need for a restoration of the Gospel or the Church. How could there have been a complete “Great Apostasy” and a removal of the “true Church” (or Church authority) when Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church? If there was a great apostasy (if even for a minute) would not Jesus have been at best, mistaken and at worst, a liar?


93 posted on 04/29/2008 10:39:41 AM PDT by defendingright
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I agree with everything you say; however, the article seems to at least suggest that Egypt (Alexandria) was THE center of Christendom for a thousand years. This is patently false. Alexandria was certainly ONE of the great Christian cities; however, this lasted for no more than seven centuries.


94 posted on 04/29/2008 10:43:05 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wideawake

***Among which ancients was baptism known as “sealing”? ***

The oldest Mormons?


95 posted on 04/29/2008 10:43:42 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: defendingright

Excellent point!


96 posted on 04/29/2008 10:43:54 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: restornu; Boagenes
That must have been how Caiaphas felt when dealing with the early saints!

Are you now comparing Christians to Caiaphas because we do not subscribe to Mormonism?

97 posted on 04/29/2008 10:47:06 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Rameumptom

***The belief in Yahweh as Israel’s second God, the chief angel, was the basis of early Christian Christology.***

Umm, no it wasn’t.

Early Christian Christology concentrated on the Triune God as told to us by Jesus and defined in detail by the Church Fathers.

***We have established that Abraham’s identification of Yahweh with “the angel of his presence” was consistent with the earliest Israelite traditions, and with the earliest Christian traditions.***

We most certainly have not. I see where L. Ron Hubbard is a theological descendent of Joseph Smith.


98 posted on 04/29/2008 10:49:13 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Osage Orange

If English was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for us. :)


99 posted on 04/29/2008 10:50:57 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: defendingright
My understanding is that there is no need for a restoration of the Gospel or the Church. How could there have been a complete “Great Apostasy” and a removal of the “true Church” (or Church authority) when Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church? If there was a great apostasy (if even for a minute) would not Jesus have been at best, mistaken and at worst, a liar?

Needs to be said again.....

100 posted on 04/29/2008 10:55:24 AM PDT by Osage Orange (molon labe)
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