John 6 was not given at the Last Supper. It is speaking a timeless Spiritual truth. Namely, that we must take Christ in, hunger for the living Word of God and let Him satisfy us, make Him part of ourselves - really, not just symbolically. He is our life and light.
Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.
Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:41-63
I realize that people who observe the Eucharist do not believe it is symbolic. And it is true that God’s presence was in the burning bush, the tabernacles and temple. Man, of course, cannot command God to do anything - but God can do anything He wills.
It would be wrong-headed to presume that God is subservient to man or that He has ipso facto transubstantiated a substance - whether a burning bush or bread and wine - simply because certain words were spoken and certain gestures were made. It is a Spiritual matter, not a physical matter.
Or to put it another way, if one were to trust the observance - and miss the person and power of Jesus Christ Himself - it would be a great tragedy. We are to take Christ in (absorb Him, make Him part of us) really not just symbolically.
To God be the glory!
John 6 was not given at the Last Supper. It is speaking a timeless Spiritual truth. Namely, that we must take Christ in, hunger for the living Word of God and let Him satisfy us, make Him part of ourselves - really, not just symbolically. He is our life and light.
I testify that Jesus Christ IS the Word of God. He lives. His Names are Alpha and Omega and I AM.
I realize that people who observe the Eucharist do not believe it is symbolic. And it is true that God’s presence was in the burning bush, the tabernacles and temple. Man, of course, cannot command God to do anything - but God can do anything He wills.
It would be wrong-headed to presume that God is subservient to man or that He has ipso facto transubstantiated a substance - whether a burning bush or bread and wine - simply because certain words were spoken and certain gestures were made. It is a Spiritual matter, not a physical matter.
Give us this day our daily bread. – Matthew 6:11
In sum, if a Christian misses the Spiritual Truth of John 6 that we are really and truly to hunger for Jesus Christ and be filled of Him – that He is not physical food and drink but Spiritual food and drink – that His words are the filling, that He is speaking of spirit and not flesh - that His words are spirit and life – then he will miss the treasure in John 6, all of his diligence to observe the Eucharist or the Lord’s Supper or Shabbat notwithstanding.
Or to put it another way, if one were to trust the observance - and miss the person and power of Jesus Christ Himself - it would be a great tragedy. We are to take Christ in (absorb Him, make Him part of us) really not just symbolically.
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
As Christ sustained the Hebrews in their wanderings toward their promised land, He sustains us today in our walk toward our new home in His new heaven and new earth (Revelation.) And the sustenance of eternal life is Spiritual, the words of God, not physical as was the manna (John 6.)
To God be the glory!
= =
INDEED!
.............. And it is true that God’s presence was in the burning bush, the tabernacles and temple. Man, of course, cannot command God to do anything - but God can do anything He wills.
It would be wrong-headed to presume that God is subservient to man or that He has ipso facto transubstantiated a substance - whether a burning bush or bread and wine - simply because certain words were spoken and certain gestures were made. It is a Spiritual matter, not a physical matter.
Yah'shua is the Holy Word of Elohim as John said. In order to know G-d, we must ingest the Word he has given us for our sustenance. also see: Exodus 15:2; Psalm 18:2; Psalm 27:1; Psalm 62:1; Psalm 62:2; Psalm 62:6;"Jesus" or better yet in His Hebrew Name is: YHvH is my salvation ( Yah'shua ).
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
Psalm 62:7; Psalm 118:14; Psalm 119:174; Isaiah 12:2; Isaiah 46:13;
Isaiah 49:6; Isaiah 51:5; Isaiah 56:1; Isaiah 19:20; Isaiah 43:3;
Isaiah 43:11; Isaiah 45:21; Isaiah 49:26; Isaiah 60:16; Hosea 13:4
In observing transubstatiaion it appears to me that it is a mocking of the Holy Spirit.. For we are talking about Jesus becoming flesh again, to be consumed by the flesh, in a fleshly way, for fleshly means.. Like the Holy Spirit(who supposedly makes this happen) comes running like a force of nature under the control of a hierophant.. Basically an elaborate play with a magical ending..
No disrespect to the RCC/EO because there are a number of rights of passage that the reformed have too that crawls my nape.. I prefer Jesus metaphor in John ch 10 that refers to Sheep Pens to explain all this to me.. There must be Sheep Pens, for the sheep pens are within us.. The "flock" metaphorically in the pasture outside(with the shepherd) the sheep pens is where any wise sheep would be but the sheep pens must have their uses.. ELSE Jesus would have condemned them, He didn't..
Transubstantiation seems to be the hinge that several other rites dangle from too.. like heirophantical control of "the layitity".. and apostle job security.. to name a couple of them..
AMEN!
The Old Testament is predicated on the physical, and the insufficiency of the physical.
The New Testament is predicated on the spiritual, and the sufficiency of the gift of the Holy Spirit to renew our minds and cleanse our lives in order for us to spiritually-discern that we are now spiritual beings who have been spiritually saved by Jesus Christ.
Sadly, the concept of transubstantiation aligns with Rome's attempt to return men to the physical realm where good works and relics and confession booths and priests who are "another Christ" are supposedly what saves the sinner.
Instead, we have Scripture which tells us...
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" -- Titus 3:5
It's understandable that some men would want to control other men by stipulating that they are the gatekeepers of the Holy Spirit and that the only means of providing salvation is through the administration of the Lord's Supper. The RCC teaches that it is only by the priest's invocation of specific words and only at the precise elevation in height of the bread and wine do these materials morph into the actual blood and body of Jesus Christ. And further, that ingestion of this transmuted material is the only means of procuring salvation.
All of which contradicts Hebrews 10...
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." -- Hebrews 10:11-18"And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Christ's sacrifice has been offered and accepted by God as perfect and complete. "It is finished." All the sins of His flock have been forgiven by Christ's work on the cross. Our job is to do as He said, "Do this in remembrance of me," so that we keep His completed sacrifice always in our grateful minds and hearts.
The errors of transubstantiation are manifold. It keeps our eyes on the physical, when our eyes and hearts and minds should be on the spiritual.
It denies the completed work of Christ on the cross.
It gives the power and purpose of the Holy Spirit over to "another Christ."
Perhaps the easiest way to refute the error of transubstantiation is to recall that Christ also called Himself the "door." And yet do we physically walk through Christ, or do we spiritually walk through and by and for Jesus Christ?
One thing to recognize, though, is that both Catholics and Orthodox (I cannot speak to other groups that confess the Real Presence, such as Anglicans and Lutherans) believe that it is the Holy Spirit who changes the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ (rather than it being by man's power)(Ref: CCC 1353).
In fact, the Latin version of the Eucharistic Prayer (during the Mass) has the following text: Let your Spirit come upon these gifts to make them holy, so that they may become for us the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Later in the prayer, Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing.
So it is not the priest doing it through some inherent power. The priest is a minister, that's all. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that enables this to happen. And it's not a matter of commanding God to do something, it is a prayer asking the Holy Spirit to do so.
One other point: you quote 1 Cor 10:1-4. I would suggest that you continue reading down to v16:
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a communion of the body of Christ?
Speaking for myself, I see a tremendous continuity in God's Word, from Genesis to Revelation. This is shown through the use of parables/ figures/ types, as illustrated in Hebrews 9. That recognition greatly assists in my understanding of the Eucharist.
Your comment, As Christ sustained the Hebrews in their wanderings toward their promised land, He sustains us today in our walk toward our new home in His new heaven and new earth, is likewise very perceptive. That is, in fact, the primary reason He instituted the Eucharist: to provide us that spiritual food and drink to sustain us while we wander through the desert of this life.
I truly enjoy reading your posts. I believe that you are one of the most insightful people who contribute the the Religion forum. The fundamental issue I think separating our views is that of the role of sacraments, in general.
AMEN! AG. Great post. Thanks for the ping and all the wonderful scripture. It really IS all about the spiritual and not the physical.