I was just going to let this go, but I'm not going to let you deliberately keep misstating my claims and intentions. I got curious about how you ever came to believe this so I went back and looked at my posts. As far as I can tell sir, it was you who created the whole notion that I "claimed" you said something you hadn't. From post 289:
I said: “She could not be made sinless without the sacrifice of Christ. If she did, then Christ was a liar. He did not die for our sins.”
You said: Yet another straw man!!!!!!!!! Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice? Who? I have never, EVER, claimed any such thing. I really don’t take it personally that you disagree with orthodoxy. I do take it personally when you flat out lie about what I have said or about what Catholics believe. Why lie? And here’s the proof: multiple times I have said Mary was sinless because of Christ’s death on the cross, His sacrifice. Multiple times I have said this! "
I made a statement that Mary could not be made sinless without the sacrifice of Christ. This is absolutely true and I believe it to be absolutely true because I do not believe anyone could have had atonement for any sins BEFORE the sacrifice ever occurred.
You then blustered that I'm a liar BECAUSE YOUR BELIEF IS DIFFERENT. You say that I claimed that YOU SAID that Mary was made sinless without the sacrifice of Christ. I never did that and you know it. I stated my belief about the topic and YOU claimed that I said you said it.
Anyone interested can look back at the entire exchange and see that this was exactly the way it happened. I'm sorry you had to go down this road because I think it took away and distracted from the article and the discussion that followed. But maybe that was your intention all along.
I'm done responding to you on this issue, so have the last word if that's your wish.
You wrote:
“I was just going to let this go, but I’m not going to let you deliberately keep misstating my claims and intentions.”
As expected you have presented yet another tact.
Here’s the simple truth in order of posts:
Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice?
In post #278 you wrote: “She could not be made sinless without the sacrifice of Christ.”
In post #286 I wrote: “Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice? Who? I have never, EVER, claimed any such thing...And here’s the proof: multiple times I have said Mary was sinless because of Christ’s death on the cross, His sacrifice. Multiple times I have said this! See the following examples AGAIN:
Post #269: Mary was always sinless, but she was made sinless by the grace won on the cross by Christ. Christ was Mary’s Savior too, only He saved her FIRST.
Post #256: Mary was made sinless by Christ’s grace. That only resulted from His death. Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time.
Post #249: Christ saved Mary from sinfulness with His grace.
Post #240: We are not making Mary sinless. CHRIST’S GRACE made Mary sinless.
You claimed I was saying Mary was made sinless WITHOUT Christ. I never ONCE, ever, EVER, said that. Never.
Thus, it is absoultely CLEAR, OBVIOUS AND IRREFUTABLE that I believe Mary was made sinless by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. I pointed out multiple times that Christ’s sacrifice was so momentous, so perfect, so powerful, that it worked backward and forward in time.
Yet you persist in saying this:
“I made a statement that Mary could not be made sinless without the sacrifice of Christ. This is absolutely true and I believe it to be absolutely true because I do not believe anyone could have had atonement for any sins BEFORE the sacrifice ever occurred.”
NO ONE HERE IS CLAIMING MARY WAS MADE SINLESS WITHOUT CHRIST. NO ONE.
“You then blustered that I’m a liar BECAUSE YOUR BELIEF IS DIFFERENT.”
NO. You said point blank, “You are” when I asked who here was claiming that Mary was made sinless WITHOUT Christ. You even insisted that BEFORE and WITHOUT had the same meaning - which is not only bizarre but completely untrue.
“You say that I claimed that YOU SAID that Mary was made sinless without the sacrifice of Christ. I never did that and you know it. I stated my belief about the topic and YOU claimed that I said you said it.”
No. I can’t believe I have to point this out to you yet again, but here is you own post #289. After quoting my own statement again in italics (”Yet another straw man!!!!!!!!! Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice?”) You wrote — “You are!”
Read it again: YOU wrote “You are!” to the question about WHO was saying “Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice”.
Now you’re claiming otherwise: “You say that I claimed that YOU SAID that Mary was made sinless without the sacrifice of Christ. I never did that and you know it.”
Your own post #289 proves you wrong on this.
“Anyone interested can look back at the entire exchange and see that this was exactly the way it happened.”
Yes, indeed, they can look at post #289 and see that you wrote; “You are!” in answer to my question. I, however, NEVER claimed Mary was made sinless WITHOUT Christ and yet you claimed I did.
“I’m sorry you had to go down this road because I think it took away and distracted from the article and the discussion that followed. But maybe that was your intention all along.”
Actually I think you claiming I said something I never said (see post #289) and now claiming you never did that (see post #319) is indicative of much in this thread - and not from my side. Again, compare posts #289 and #319 and see for yourself. Those words, “You are!”, end the case on this point and it’s not in your favor.
“I’m done responding to you on this issue, so have the last word if that’s your wish.”
Here, let’s let you have the last word: “You are!”