You are! You claim that she was made sinless BEFORE Christ's sacrifice. Without any scriptural proof or justification you then throw out a statement saying that the sacrifice occurred before it occurred to make Mary sinless. Kind of like a weird back to the future episode. It's like me saying that the action of me going to the store and buying eggs today made it possible for eggs to show up in my refrigerator 30 years ago. It's nonsense.
Post #269: Mary was always sinless, but she was made sinless by the grace won on the cross by Christ. Christ was Mary’s Savior too, only He saved her FIRST.
An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.
Post #256: Mary was made sinless by Christ’s grace. That only resulted from His death. Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time.
An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.
Post #249: Christ saved Mary from sinfulness with His grace.
An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.
Post #240: We are not making Mary sinless. CHRIST’S GRACE made Mary sinless.
An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.
So far you have tried multiple straw men, quoting only half a statement to make it look like it supports you and now you’re just flat out lying. And yet, incredibly, you wrote:
This is interesting spin. Totally false, but an interesting glimpse into your character.
Incredible. Then why lie about what I said and what we believe? Christ saved Mary. He saved her through the grace He won on the cross. His sacrifice was so perfect that it is timeless and helps those in the past and in the future for God has no time!
And here's the crux of the matter. You present your opinion and theory as fact without any type of scriptural support whatsoever and then you take umbrage and call people names when they appeal to scripture to show that this theory is false.
They gotta do it, Doug. They have not a leg to stand on with regards to scripture.... so they must spin fairy tales to back their tradition....which then trumps scripture!
You wrote:
“You are!
There you go lying again. Show me the exact post where I ever claimed “Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice”. When you fail miserably - and you will - what will you do then? Will you come up with another straw man?
“You claim that she was made sinless BEFORE Christ’s sacrifice.”
Now you’re saying the issue is “BEFORE” whereas a minute ago you were claiming I said Mary was sinless “WITHOUT” Christ. BEFORE and WITHOUT are two different words and represent two different things. Jesus’ sacrifice is - in case you didn’t know - so powerful that it transcends time and space. It produced the grace that saved Moses. And Adam. And Abraham. And Mary. Yes, Jesus’ grace saves people who walked the earth before Christ became man and died on the cross. If you’re saved, it’s because of Christ’s grace. The same grace that saved Moses - even though you’re seperated by 3,000 years. Didn’t you know that? God’s grace saves men in the past and the future. This is so for two reasons: 1) Christ’s sacrifice is so perfect and great, and 2) God sees all as present and He has no past or future.
“Without any scriptural proof or justification you then throw out a statement saying that the sacrifice occurred before it occurred to make Mary sinless.”
Another lie from you. I never once, NEVER ONCE, claimed that Christ’s sacrifice “occurred before it occurred to make Mary sinless.” I said this:
Post #256: Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time.
Yet, now you are claiming I said something I never, EVER, said. Again, I don’t mind you disagreeing with orthodoxy, but why lie about what I said?
“Kind of like a weird back to the future episode. It’s like me saying that the action of me going to the store and buying eggs today made it possible for eggs to show up in my refrigerator 30 years ago. It’s nonsense.”
So Moses is damned? Abraham damned? Adam, David, Solomon - all damned? The simple fact is that Christ’s grace can be applied to anyone he chooses to do so. He is sovereign and all powerful. If you ran into Moses in heaven would you deny that he should be there simply because he died 1,000 BEFORE Christ died on the cross? Is it news to you that Christ’s grace helps those who lived BEFORE He became man?
“An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.”
No, a fact - taught by the Church whose authority to teach is attested to by scripture.
An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.
Again, so Moses is damned? Are you doubting this: “Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time.” Moses was BEFORE Christ’s death. Are you saying he is damned?
“An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.”
No, it’s a fact - taught by the Church whose authority to teach is attested to by scripture.
“An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.”
No, it’s a fact - taught by the Church whose authority to teach is attested to by scripture. And thanks for tacitly admitting that you lied when you said I was supporting this: “Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice?” The quotes I posted showed I said the exact opposite. You knew that to be the case so you simply ignored that fact that you lost that point and said they were unsupported by scripture even when that meant shooting your own argument in the foot. Gee, smart.
“This is interesting spin. Totally false, but an interesting glimpse into your character.”
Wow. Let’s look at this again. Here’s what you said I supported: “Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice?” You said I was. I pointed out the following: Post #269: Mary was always sinless, but she was made sinless by the grace won on the cross by Christ. Christ was Mary’s Savior too, only He saved her FIRST. Post #256: Mary was made sinless by Christ’s grace. That only resulted from His death. Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time. Post #249: Christ saved Mary from sinfulness with His grace. Post #240: We are not making Mary sinless. CHRIST’S GRACE made Mary sinless.
You said - point blank - that I said Mary was saved WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice. I demonstrated that that was a flat out lie. Can you prove otherwise? No. I have repeatedly said AND HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED that Mary was saved by Christ’s sacrifice.
“And here’s the crux of the matter. You present your opinion and theory as fact without any type of scriptural support whatsoever and then you take umbrage and call people names when they appeal to scripture to show that this theory is false.”
Wrong. You lied about what I believe and what I said. Remember, I asked this: “Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice? Who?”
You responded with: “You are!” That is a flat out lie.
Christ saved Mary with His grace that He won on the cross. His sacrifice works both forward and backward in time. That’s how Moses and Adam and David can go to heaven as well as you and me.