Replies

You can find a mix of what you and I both would agree are orthodox and erroneous beliefs and teachings in the Church Fathers. Although heroic and true saints, blessing us with some wonderful words of wisdom, Irenaus, Turtullian, Origen, etc. all had certain other beliefs and teachings which Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant all agree were not correct.

Most of those erroneous beliefs were later caught and expunged by the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If you can prove something counter-biblical that they taught, that your church still teaches, so what? It just means that the church still needs reforming, and conformance to God’s holy Word.

One cannot logically say a practice has been around “since the very beginning” unless one can prove it in the record of the 1st generation of the Church, from the mouths of the Apostles themselves, that is, in scripture.

In the very verse you quoted me, God tells us what Jesus’ role is for us today: “Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,” which is why we pray through Christ alone, but there is utterly no proof there that “the spirits of the just made perfect” are omni-present as God only is, hearing the prayers of the saints on earth.

If you can prove something counter-biblical that they taught, that your church still teaches, so what?

Ay, there's the rub. I read the Bible, and see that Christians should all pray for each other. I read the Bible, and see that we should not try and raise the dead. I read the Bible, and see that those who believe in Christ are granted Eternal Life, and are thus not dead. They continue to believe in Christ (moreso than you and I can - they are with Him) and are part of the Mystical Body of Christ. I don't know the physics of Heaven or how exactly Heaven can see/hear us - I do know the Psalmist cried to Heaven and told/asked the Angels to praise God. I read the Bible, and see that the prayers of holy people are especially powerful. Taking all this together, I can know these things:

Heaven can hear the cries/prayers of those of us on Earth.
People who have "died" in Christ are granted Eternal life and are in Heaven.
Believers are told to pray for each other.
The prayers of holy people are especially effective.

Thus, I ask the Saints in Heaven to pray for me. I know they have no power of their own - it is all done through God. None of this is counter-biblical - it is not explicitly spelled out in the Bible, the logical train is there. God graced us with reason - we are meant to use it.