Posted on 04/12/2008 7:19:29 AM PDT by DouglasKC
Try as some will to lessen her importance, she remains unique, chosen by God above all others to be the Mother of our Lord.
Luke 11:27-28] And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Does this mean that Mary is to be remembered for her role in the plan of God. Yes! Does this mean that she is special, someone to be adored and prayed to? No!
And don't call him Shirley! :)
I'm not a sola scriptura sort of guy. Teachers and tradition are fine but scripture is the final authority for me. And it's based on more than just one verse.
To be honest I just think it boils down good intentions coupled with an unwillingness to question tradition. So your argument is that Catholics are too stupid to know we are worshiping Mary?
Not at all. Tradition and culture are powerful forces that are difficult to break from even in the best of circumstances.
As so eloquently pointed out by Mr. Twain by any measure except perhaps the insistence of Catholicism to the contrary it certainly seems as if Mary is an object of worship for Catholicism. So it seems to everyone that Catholics worship Mary except to Catholics ? It appears then that the problem is not that Catholic worship mary but ignorance on the part of most Protestants on how Catholics view Mary
Or a problem in how Catholics define worship.
As far as my purpose I have no choice in the manner. It's incumbent upon the church of God to correct doctrine that is in error. What doctrine is that? I am not aware of any doctrine that calls on Catholics to worship Mary.
That Mary was sinless...that praying to Mary is scriptural, etc. etc.
We Catholics do NOT worship Mary, we worship God ALONE. Again, Mary is NOT worshipped.
Well let me post the relevant scripture again.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Your position seems to be that since we don't have Mary on record (or anyone else for that matter) saying that Mary is sinless, that this doesn't apply. Let's do a fer instance. Suppose Mary told someone that she was without sin. Would this scripture than apply to her? She wouldn't be lying. She couldn't. She wouldn't be bragging. She can't sin. Remember, John makes no exceptions here.
And what are we to make of Paul?
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Again, Paul says that ALL are under sin. None are righteous. Now he specifically says in may places that Christ was without sin. But he never makes an exception for Mary either.
So yes, I think John's analysis is correct. If you want to continue to insist that Mary was without sin then Christ must be a liar.
Well let me post the relevant scripture again.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Your position seems to be that since we don't have Mary on record (or anyone else for that matter) saying that Mary is sinless, that this doesn't apply. Let's do a fer instance. Suppose Mary told someone that she was without sin. Would this scripture than apply to her? She wouldn't be lying. She couldn't. She wouldn't be bragging. She can't sin. Remember, John makes no exceptions here.
And what are we to make of Paul?
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Again, Paul says that ALL are under sin. None are righteous. Now he specifically says in may places that Christ was without sin. But he never makes an exception for Mary either.
So yes, I think John's analysis is correct. If you want to continue to insist that Mary was without sin then Christ must be a liar. Gee, I noticed you didn’t even comment on the fact that you were caught cutting half the sentence away from your quote of the Catholic Encyclopedia. Why is that?
I wasn't "caught" doing anything. My wording was very specific and I explained at the bottom of post 228, which you must have skipped.
You were caught before then.
Post 228 is where you attempt an excuse.
You wrote:
“Your position seems to be that since we don’t have Mary on record (or anyone else for that matter) saying that Mary is sinless, that this doesn’t apply. Let’s do a fer instance. Suppose Mary told someone that she was without sin. Would this scripture than apply to her? She wouldn’t be lying. She couldn’t. She wouldn’t be bragging. She can’t sin. Remember, John makes no exceptions here.”
John was simply not making a statement about Mary.
“And what are we to make of Paul?”
Simple. That Paul was not making a statement about Mary.
“Again, Paul says that ALL are under sin. None are righteous. Now he specifically says in may places that Christ was without sin. But he never makes an exception for Mary either.”
He didn’t have to. http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/all-have-sinned-mary.html
“So yes, I think John’s analysis is correct. If you want to continue to insist that Mary was without sin then Christ must be a liar.”
No, only you would be the liar. Christ saved Mary from sinfulness with His grace.
“For example, when a Catholic prays the rosary, the “Hail Mary” is said nine times as often as the Lord’s Prayer.”
This sentence is misleading. First of all, the first half of the “Hail Mary” is a quote straight from the Bible. Luke 1:40. The second half is a request that Mary pray for us. Now I’ve heard lots of Protestants ask others “pray for me” so perhaps we’re splitting hairs here and maybe it has to do with the idea of when the dead rise and go to Heaven. Call me crazy but the idea of Jesus making his mom wait a couple of millinium before she can hang out with him doesn’t make sense. OK, returning to the timing anaylsis, I listen to the rosary being chanted so this morning I watched the timer to see just how much time is involved. Chanted this one non biblical part which is longer than doing it in your head, takes up 10 seconds of each “Hail Mary.” So by my calculation, 10 seconds times the 50 “Hail Marys” equals just about 8 minutes in a ritual which when chanted, takes 30 minutes. That’s about 26% of the time. The rest is Biblical except for the fourth and fifth Glorious mysteries which aren’t Biblical and sort of trouble me too but all 18 others are right out of the Bible and require no “mariology” whatsoever. So, bottom line, the Rosary is a mediation on the life of Jesus which, given family connections, involves his mother but really not as much as one might think.
Those who understand the word "component" can judge for themselves. If my intent were to mislead I wouldn't have bothered to include a link, I wouldn't have put down a source and I wouldn't have said "a component of adoration is".
But nonetheless if you saw that as my intent I'll be sure to post all the relevant and non-relevant information next time.
You don't have to accept anything I say. I'm basically just quoting the bible.
Who adores Mary? Protestants? :)
Sure he was. He was making a statement that everyone sins. Mary is part of the subset of "everyone". And everyone who says they don't sin makes Christ a liar.
Simple. That Paul was not making a statement about Mary. “Again, Paul says that ALL are under sin. None are righteous. Now he specifically says in may places that Christ was without sin. But he never makes an exception for Mary either.”
Here's where it's the most clear.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Mary was a Jew. She was under sin. She is part of "all". Paul doesn't say "except Mary of course." He didn't say it because he didn't believe it. He didn't think it was true. He never considered it a possibility.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
He even quotes the old testament to prove his point. If even one person apart from Christ is sinless, is righteous, than it makes the sacrifice Christ meaningless because it means that the death of Christ didn't have to happen in order to be saved. If God could make Mary sinless without the death of Christ, then he could do that to anyone and this whole thing called Christianity is a cruel joke by a cruel God.
I watched the timer to see just how much time is involved. Chanted this one non biblical part which is longer than doing it in your head, takes up 10 seconds of each “Hail Mary.” So by my calculation, 10 seconds times the 50 “Hail Marys” equals just about 8 minutes in a ritual which when chanted, takes 30 minutes.>
[Matthew 6:5-7] And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
You wrote:
“Sure he was.”
So say you, but your opinion is not worth much.
“He was making a statement that everyone sins. Mary is part of the subset of “everyone”. And everyone who says they don’t sin makes Christ a liar.”
I am not saying I don’t sin. Again, you pretend it says one thing when it says something else.
“Here’s where it’s the most clear.”
Again: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/all-have-sinned-mary.html Couldn’t be clearer.
“Mary was a Jew.”
Mary was also the Mother of God.
“She was under sin.”
She was made sinless by her divine Son.
“She is part of “all”. Paul doesn’t say “except Mary of course.””
He didn’t have to. That wasn’t his point nor was Mary being referred to by Paul.
“He didn’t say it because he didn’t believe it. He didn’t think it was true. He never considered it a possibility.”
Never considered a possibility? Wow, and anti-Catholics always say Catholics are presumptuous?
“He even quotes the old testament to prove his point. If even one person apart from Christ is sinless, is righteous, than it makes the sacrifice Christ meaningless because it means that the death of Christ didn’t have to happen in order to be saved.”
Untrue and here’s the heart of the matter. You clearly don’t even know what the Immaculate Conception is or how it was worked on Mary and so you come up with a caricature of it. Wouldn’t help if you actually knew what you were talking about? Wouldn’t it help?
“If God could make Mary sinless without the death of Christ, then he could do that to anyone and this whole thing called Christianity is a cruel joke by a cruel God.”
Again, we see you making up caricatures rather than dealing with what Catholics actually believe. Mary was made sinless by Christ’s grace. That only resulted from His death. Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time. That’s how Adam, Abraham, Moses and the other patriarchs can be saved even though they all lived BEFORE Christ was crucified. Again, if you’re going to attack what we believe, wouldn’t help to actually know what that is first? Making up straw men and attacking those while claiming to be dealing with actual Catholic doctrines just makes you look foolish.
Once one recognizes the nature of The Game, all of this foolishness becomes glaringly, jarringly obvious.
******************
Unfortunately, friend, you are quite right.
And adding your personal interpretation of the verse. You then went further and claimed that your personal interpretation of this single verse from Scripture disproves Catholic teaching on Mary. Given you have yet to show you even understand what the Church Doctrines are(given you repeated assertions that Catholic worship Mary) that was a quantum leap indeed!
Maybe I was mistaken. I was under the impression that Catholics considered that Mary was sinless BEFORE the death of Christ. That she had to be sinless to bear the Christ. But apparently what you're really saying is that Mary is like anyone else. When Christ died on the cross and she accepted his sacrifice that she became sinless in God's eyes, just like happens to all Christians.
That's entirely different. I thought you were saying that God's grace made Mary sinless before she even conceived the Jesus and way before he was sacrificed. This of course would be the situation that would make Christ a liar and Christianity a cruel hoax.
My apologies.
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