Posted on 04/09/2008 12:36:13 PM PDT by annalex
Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity
By Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.
We are living in a remarkable age. As we approach the third millennium of Christianity in the year 2,000, we are watching a world in extremes. Amid the rapid onslaught of secularization and irreligion, we find hordes of people seeking solace in religion.
Amid the ravages of war and violence, we find the comfort and love of those who care for the poor and disadvantaged. Amid the lightning pace of modern life, we find souls searching for deeper meaning by retreating to monasteries and ashrams for solitude.
Two of the most powerful inspirations in late twentieth century Christianity are the drive toward greater unity among Christians of widely differing backgrounds (ecumenism) and the rapid growth of Marian devotion all around the world. This century has seen unprecedented efforts to bring together Christians who have been separated by misunderstanding and prejudice. And just when the ecumenical movement on a formal level seemed moribund, a new surge of grassroots ecumenism is finding ways of bringing together Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians. Whatever the outcome of these efforts, the air of this last decade of the second millennium is filled with the scent of Christian unity. It seems that Christians are grasping every opportunity to reconcile their doctrinal differences and to find the sweet savor of "brothers dwelling together in unity" (Ps 133: 1).
If this is an age of ecumenism, it is equally a Marian era because no century since the birth of Christ has witnessed such an outpouring of devotion to the mother of Jesus. As many observers note, reported apparitions and locutions have multiplied, leading numerous Christians to an unprecedented devotion to the humble handmaiden of the Lord who was privileged to bring the world its Redeemer. In tandem with these grassroots movements, there is a monumental effort within the Catholic Church for the Pope to define as dogma Marian doctrines that have long been present in the Church (Mediatrix, Coredemptrix, Advocate). Whether or not the Supreme Pontiff of the Catholic Church decides to act, there is unlikely to be any diminishing of devotion to the mother of Jesus.
On the other hand, many non-Catholic Christians are mystified by such devotion to Mary. Some feel strangely drawn to honor her, but are afraid of falling into excessive focus on Mary to the exclusion of Jesus. To others, Marian devotion borders on the blasphemous. To still others, Catholics are idolaters. It is not an overstatement to say that no expression of historic Christianity has ever placed Mary in such a high position of honor as has the western Catholic tradition. And even though the Eastern Orthodox Churches have long honored Mary as the Mother of God, they do not have fully developed mariologies as the Western Church has.
The juxtaposition of ecumenical and Marian movements seems odd at best. On the surface, it appears that Mary would be the last subject chosen in an ecumenical dialogue. One might think that all the areas on which common agreement might be achieved should be addressed first, and then deal with the thorny question of Marian doctrine. Better to leave Mary until last. However, I am now convinced that questions about Mary must be addressed up front if any true ecumenism is ever to be achieved.
On a purely human level, no genuine friendship can ignore beliefs which are central to one party while those same beliefs are at best questionable to the other. Further, it is not completely honest for Catholics to pretend that Marian doctrines and devotions are not important and central to our lives. We ought to state openly that the Catholic faith does not allow the Church to ever change its defined dogmas about Mary. On the other hand, we must admit that not everything that goes on under the term Marian devotion is necessary or beneficial for the Church.
What can talk about Mary do to promote the cause of ecumenism? The answer depends on what we mean by ecumenism. One definition, and the one most common, sees ecumenism as a process of negotiation between different churches whereby one church gives up some aspect of its faith and the other partner relinquishes its claim to some of its distinctives. This process proceeds through a number of steps until a lowest common denominator is reached. The result is a church or some other official body which has a reduced form of faith and practice so that it might accommodate each respective member. This has largely been the pattern of ecumenism in the United States and the Western world for the better part of this century. In my judgment, such attempts have been a monumental failure. Mary cannot help with this type of ecumenism. The other definition of ecumenism is not founded on the concept of negotiation, but on seeking together the truth of God’s revelation. It begins with confessing that we don’t apprehend God’s truth completely, and that we must always seek to have the mind of Christ. In this conception, unity of heart and mind does not come from negotiated agreements, but from all parties, recognizing and embracing the objective truth of God.
It is a commonplace that married couples do not achieve success by each giving fifty percent to their marriage, but by each giving one hundred percent of themselves. In the same way, Christian unity comes from full commitment to searching for truth in a spirit of humility. Ecumenism begins with recognizing that unity already exists in God, that Christ is the center of unity, and that the Holy Spirit is the operative agent in bringing Christians together. Mary has everything to do with this kind of ecumenism.
Mary: The Sign of Unity ?
How can Mary help in promoting Christian unity? Many may feel the weight of disunity among Christians and long for a greater oneness in Christ, but can Mary really give us that greater oneness? Mary has been a source of division between Catholics and Protestants for a long time. What good will focusing on Mary bring? How can Christians be one when the very Marian devotions so precious to Catholics are viewed as idolatrous by Protestants? To human eyes, it seems that almost any other Christian doctrine would be better suited to bring unity than doctrines of Mary. And if we think of Mary just as a set of doctrines, that would be true. But Mary is more than a set of doctrines. Mary is a person. She lived her life on this earth as the mother of our Lord with her own character, mind, and idiosyncrasies. These things are true regardless of what we believe about her. Mary is what she is apart from our beliefs.
There is one unmistakable fact that we must remember about the real Mary—the Son of God lived in her womb for nine months. This is how Mary can be an instrument of unity. She united the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, with His human nature in her own body. Mary united more than any human being has ever united. She united God and man in the small confines of her own womb. Ponder this amazing reality. In Mary’s womb, heaven and earth were joined, not as two separate realities, but perfectly united in the one person of the Son of God. No wonder it says that "Mary treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart" (Lk 2:19). It is a reality beyond words.
Mary was the instrument of unity for the body of Jesus Christ and this is why Mary has long been thought of as mother of the church. The church is the body of Christ and Mary was the mother of Christ’s body, both physically and mystically. It is clear from Scripture that Jesus Christ is the key to unity among Christians, but the one Savior Jesus Christ would not be what he is—the perfect God-man—without Mary’s being the means of uniting His divine and human natures in one person.
Mary’s example of obedience and discipleship also forms the foundation of unity. Mary gave herself unreservedly to Jesus her Son. Every Christian wants to be an obedient disciple of our Lord and needs examples of obedience to do so. Mary was filled with grace, and this allowed her to listen to the commands of her God without delay. Mary was on earth what every Christian will become in heaven, filled with grace. Obedience means a readiness to say YES to God, a spirit of humility that says "Let it be" (fiat). Unity cannot be achieved through negotiation. It must come through obedience to the apostolic teaching given by Jesus to Paul and the other apostles. Without a willing spirit, we can never achieve God’s desire for unity. Mary’s life of obedience and discipleship calls us to unity with God through obedience.
The unity we seek is not human but divine. Its source is the divine life of Christ the Redeemer. It is that unity for which He prayed when He said, "Father, that they might be one." This kind of unity doesn’t come from each group of Christians giving up some belief or practice for the sake of unity; it comes from each individual or group submitting to the authority of Christ and from the work of the Holy Spirit bringing oneness where it is humanly impossible. Like salvation itself, Christian unity is not within the grasp of human power. All we can do is open ourselves to the ministry of the Spirit to produce the unity that is impossible through negotiation.
It is because Mary has been such a stumbling block for Christians that a fuller embracing of her person and role will achieve a greater unity than we might expect. If we view Mary apart from Jesus, then Mary cannot help us. Yet she was never meant to be seen apart from her Son. Just as the Magi found Jesus "with his mother" (Mt 2:11), so we find Mary involved with her divine Son, cooperating in His work and plan.
We cannot solve the problem of how to be one in Christ. Not by negotiation, not by one or the other side caving in. But God can solve our problems. God specializes in the impossible, just as He once said to Mary (Lk 1:37). If the Holy Spirit can form within the womb of the Virgin Mary a new entity—the unique Godman—then He surely can bring together Christians divided by history, suspicion and misinformation. Perhaps it’s time for us to stop trying to be unified and let God do what we have failed to do. No one can see precisely how this will happen, but we know it won’t happen without embracing the fullness of salvation in Christ himself.
Mary and the Unity of the Trinity
The unity we seek does not result from negotiated agreements. Our Christian unity must be founded on truth. It must be unity of heart and mind, a permanent oneness that is not shaken by the changing tides of custom and culture. The New Testament concept of unity is nothing less than union with the Holy Trinity. Jesus our Lord prayed that the oneness of His disciples would resemble and flow from the oneness experienced by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit: "That they all may be one, Father, as you are in me and I in you that they may also be one in us" (Jn 17:21). Jesus Christ does not want our unity to be like his and the Father’s. He wants our unity to be the same as He and the Father have.
Mary is both a sign and an instrument of the unity coming from the Holy Trinity because she bears a unique relation to each member. Let’s see how Mary is related to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. First, however, a word of caution. In A.D. 431 the ancient Christian Church defined Mary as the Mother of God because the Church wanted to protect the full divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ. This title, Mother of God (or better Godbearer), asserted that the child in Mary’s womb was nothing less than fully God and fully man. But the title Mother of God never has been nor should be interpreted to mean that Mary is the mother of the Trinity. Mary bears a distinct relation to each member of the Trinity, but she is not the mother of the Father, nor of the Holy Spirit.
Mary is the daughter of the Father.
When Mary proclaims herself the handmaiden of the Lord (Lk 1:38,48), she is declaring her filial obedience to the will of God. The love she has for the heavenly Father shows itself in her desire to be His vessel of bringing salvation to the world. What better sign of unity than this act of submission to the will of God? If we only follow Mary’s lead, we will find ourselves united in heart as her heart was united with the heavenly Father’s heart.
Mary did not negotiate with God, bargain with Him nor seek a compromise. She acknowledged her dependence on His grace and sought to perform His bidding. The will of the Father is unity for us who profess His Son. We will have unity only when we have submitted ourselves to the Father as Mary did.
Yet Mary is more than a sign. She is an instrument of unity. How is this true? Without her obedience the Savior would not have been born. Some Christians think that if Mary had refused Gabriel’s invitation to bear the Savior, God would have found another woman. There is not the slightest evidence in the New Testament for this view. Mary freely gave herself to God’s will of giving the world its Savior. By her instrumentality Mary united the Father to the world through His Son. In a profound sense, Mary united us to the Father through the Son. And that is how we will find a greater degree of unity today. By seeking to imitate her obedience and by seeking submission to the same Father through the Son she bore.
Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.
Gabriel proclaimed that the Holy Spirit would come over her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her (Lk 1:35). This is the language of marital love (see Ruth 3:9; Zeph 3:17). Mary was united with the third person of the Trinity in order to give flesh to the second person. As the spouse of the Holy Spirit, she gave her body to the service of God so that she might receive the fullness of God. And so Mary is a sign of how we too must seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit to do the will of God (cf Eph 5:18). It is the Holy Spirit who brings Jesus Christ today just as He brought the divine Christ to the womb of Mary (cf. Jn 14:17,18). When we are filled with the Spirit as Mary was, we are united to Jesus and we become more united with one another. Mary’s union with the Holy Spirit brought us the Son who poured out the Spirit that we might be united with both Son and Spirit. Her union brings about our union.
Mary is the mother of the Son.
Through her, Christ’s divine and human natures were united into the one person that would save us from our sins. As Jesus’ mother, Mary signals that our unity will only be in and through her Son. When Paul says that Jesus was "born of a woman ... that we might receive the adoption" (Gal 4:4,5), the apostle implies that true unity comes only from being members of the same family—the same family in which Jesus is the firstborn Son.
We cannot be members of many different families that have a tolerance for one another’s beliefs and worship. No doubt tolerance for cultural and historical differences is essential, but that is still not the New Testament ideal of unity. Unity means being in the same family as Jesus ("one Lord"), having the same content of belief ("one faith"), living in the same Church body ("one baptism"). Only then can we be sure that we have the same "God and Father of all, who is over all, through all and in all." See Ephesians 4:4-6.
Mary: God’s Woman of the Hour
Now is the time for unity among Christians. As we approach the beginning of the third millennium since Christ’s birth, we see an almost unprecedented call to unity. Christian leaders the world over have caught a glimpse of Christ’s will that "they may be one, Father, as you are in me and I in you" (Jn 17:21). The desire for unity is laudable and ought to be pursued with vigor. Yet the only unity worth pursuing, the only unity that will last is the unity that already exists in the Holy Trinity. This kind of unity is not something we achieve. It is something given to us as a gift. This unity is infused in our souls and expressed by oneness of mind and heart (doctrine and love).
Truth without love is barren and sterile. Unity without truth is empty and fruitless. Jesus was a kind and compassionate man who proclaimed the truth. The Lord who wept over Jerusalem’s obstinacy (see Mt 23:37-39), and who was moved with compassion over the "sheep without a shepherd," (Mk 6:34) is the same Lord who said that the truth of His words would not pass away (Lk 21:33). If Jesus is our Lord, then we must follow with equal vigor His truth and love.
Insistence on truth at the expense of unity will not do, nor will embracing unity at the expense of truth. Truth and unity are equally ultimate. Yet even now, we must realize the impossibility of reconciling truth and unity with human schemes and ingenuity. The only way to have unity is by having unity in Truth. The truth that brings unity is Jesus Himself who is "the way, the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6). The truth Jesus gives is the complete teaching of His will as expressed in and through the Church of the apostles.
The Church is Jesus’ idea and institution; it is part of the will of Jesus. And it is Christ’s Church that wrote and gave us the Holy Scriptures and the truths of faith passed down from generation to generation. Obedience to Jesus means obedience to Jesus’ Church. It is no accident that Christians have spoken of the Church as our mother for centuries. Classic Christianity spoke this way: the one who wants God as a Father must have the Church as a mother. Why is it necessary? Because Jesus is nurturing our faith through our mother, the Church. And that is why Mary is so important.
Jesus is our model but we must remember that even our Lord learned some of His commitment to truth and compassion from His mother. All we have to assume is that Mary lived her own words to see that this is true. She loved truth enough to consent to Gabriel’s invitation to bear the Son of God (Lk 1:38). She was filled with compassion enough to see God’s "mercy from generation to generation" (Lk 1:50). Mary was a woman of truth and love. Her commitment to God’s truth and love lead her to the unity of the Son of God. Her submissive heart that willingly embraced God’s truth and her devoted love for God brought about the unity of Christ’s human and divine natures into the perfect unity of His one divine person.
So Mary’s commitment to truth and unity is both our model and the means of our unity. She modeled our path to unity by her embrace of the divine Son within her womb. We must embrace Him too. Mary is also the means of our having unity because without her act of submission to God we would not have the one Savior who can unify us.
It is time to lay down our defensive postures, to lay aside our personal and political agendas, to give up our dearest visions for the Church and to embrace the complete will of Christ. I believe that if we could simply be like Mary on that day when Gabriel came to her, we could then say with her, "Let it be done to us according to your word" (Lk 1:38). Perhaps, she could say with us:
Lord, we are your servants.
Heal our divisions and
Let Your Son reign as Lord within.
Let Your Word dwell within us
And make us one.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
This article is from Ken’s new book, Mary of Nazareth: Sign and Instrument of Christian Unity. [Queenship Publishing]
How do you explain this from the writings of Ignatius of Antioch, AD 107:
“You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
>.Got any more earth shattering insights, categorical statements and pronouncements, Calvin?<<
Thanks Hobbs. That about does it for now. ;)
Yes.
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a narration of the things that have been accomplished among us; 2 According as they have delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word: 3 It seemed good to me also, having diligently attained to all things from the beginning, to write to thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mayest know the verity of those words in which thou hast been instructed.Luke 1
Theophilus "has been instructed" and afterwards the Gospel is written. Tradition preceded the Gospel.
[the Apostles were Jewish and] were not "Catholic", nor ever self identified as such.
The word "catholic" emerged in the writings of St. Ignatius who died in AD 107. The New Testament were not sorted out till much later. There is nothing in the writings of the Holy Apostles that looks a tiniest bit un-Catholic or un-Orthodox; the Church that fought off heresies and assembled the scripture was Catholic Orthodox.
the founding of the "RCC
The birth of the Catholic Church is prophesied in Matthew 16 and recorded in Acts 2.
Your posted quotes are part of the reason I am not Catholic.
What I know is that God doesn’t have a mother. What I observe is that the RCC is deliberate in deifying Mary - creating dogmas that have no Scriptural substance for reasons that can only be concluded to be idolatrous.
There is no positive proof that Mary is therein- There is a very good argument that the vision is representative of Israel, and that fits much better with the rest of the scripture. In that it is vision, and prophecy, and is subject to interpretation, we will not know for certain until such time as it is perfectly revealed.
St. Paul’s remark that women are sanctified in their childbearing is hard to understand other than if it is a reference to Mary.
Chapter and verse plz...
It is also not true that the veneration of Mary makes her “more than the human mother of Christ” — this is precisely why she is venerated.
Co-redemptrix and Co-mediatrix seem to be "more than the human mother of Christ".
There is no direct sanction to venerate statues of saints specifically, but there is a passage in St. Paul how contemplation of icons brings us to holiness. Adoration of the Crucifix is mentioned twice that I can think of by St. Paul. There is, of course, a direct scriptural sanction to venerate relics of saints.
Chapter and verse, plz...
Here is a lesson in traditional theology:
Jesus Christ was both completely human and completely divine at the same time. He was both a human being and the eternal Logos (the Word). He had two natures.
God does not have a mother. But Jesus Christ did, because he was both of man and of God.
The Logos was not concieved in Mary’s womb, but Jesus Christ was, because in him, God and man were united together in one body in order to save and redeem mankind
Let me help with what the early Christians believed regarding Our Blessed Mother
Mary’s Immaculate Conception
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).
This is was belived by even Martin Luther
“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.”
Martin Luther, (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).
The heretical belief that Mary sinned did not gain much ground until after the reformation,over 1500 years later.It really started to gain ground in the 1800’s
This is why the Church declared it Dogma in order to stop the gaining heretical belief from effecting its members.
This is often the case regarding Dogma's,it is NOT that the majority of Christians historically never believed certain things overwhelmingly,it is to make them concrete
Take for example the Dogma of Christ's Divinity
When did the Church declare that Jesus was God as dogma? At the council of Nicea in 325 AD. Nearly 300 years after Christ's death, correct? Does that mean that the Church DID NOT already believe this? Of course it did! Jesus was worshiped during the liturgy. People prayed to Him during their daily prayers and through their actions. The Church already KNEW that Jesus was God , the Church DEFINES that He was God infallibly based on the guidance of the Spirit already at work in the Church.
The Church also needed to act to put an end to the Arian heresies that denied the Divinity of Christ,much like it did in declaring the Immaculate Conception with the protestant heresies
I don’t disagree with your lesson. I do agree with your statement “God does not have a mother.” Jesus did have a mother. Amen to the Lamb of God.
None who are the Mother of God, received Annunciation of that fact from an angel of God, was met by three wise men who came from far away to give exquisite gifts. None who witnessed their son turn water into wine, or heard from his disciples and others of his miracles. None whose son raised anyone from the dead. None who was crucified, died, was buried and later reappeared resurrected. In other words, no, none of my friends have a son named Christ, a Savior foretold by generations past.
This is comical.
I agree. You should make that your tagline.
Heck why not make Adam and Eve sinless, then none of this would have been necessary.
Precisely true- There is a game afoot, and while God himself wrote the rules, He tends to play according to them, as can be attested by His attention to Hebrew Law in divorcing His wife "The House of Israel".
While we cannot fully understand the game at this point, we certainly can understand the rules- They are right there for all to see.
Yes, Mary made salvation possible through her obedience to God. But I don’t think for a second that God’s plans for salvation rested on the decision of one person. If Mary has refused, God would have brought it about another way. To presume that any person can frustrate the will of God is sheer arrogance.
There is some evidence that it would have to be Mary- in considering the ascent from the throne of David. Jesus bloodline needs to wind up in the high house of Judah, and that must hapen through His mother, as his legal 'father' was from a cursed line of kings.
That cursed line (Jeconiah) was necessary, IMHO, to complete the Prophecy that he would come from the House of Solomon. He was later legally adopted, supposedly into Mary's House, where He would have to be the eldest to have a righteous claim to David's throne... But that line comes out of the line of Nathan, not Solomon. That all being said, the matriarchal line would have to come from Mary's family, or so one could suppose.
Amazing how you count points, as if keeping score in some kind of sick game of "Hate the Catholics."
I used the Catholic RSV And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, "He is beside himself." "Houston, we have a problem."
If you are a Bible-believing Christian, why don’t you believe the words in Luke?
“And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” Luke 1:28
“And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.” Luke 1:31
“Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:34-35
“And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.” Luke 1:38
“And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:41-43
“And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.” Luke 1:46-48
Sacred Scripture says that she is the Mother of the Lord and that all generations will call her blessed. The Angel Gabriel (who says in verse 19 that he stands in the presence of God) calls her blessed among women - from God’s lips to our ears! Evidently God already thought she was blessed among women, even before Jesus was born. So, are you arguing with the inspired Word of God?
They are not just called "brothers" in those verses, they are called "his brothers" and they are even called "his brothers" in my Imprimatured Catholic Bible. Bishop Challoner translated it "his brothers" -- not his cousins -- but "his brothers". Is your Greek better than that of Bishop Challoner???
Many things you believe are not to the point of losing your salvation, but error is very dangerous. The Bible doesn't say what you might think or believe other than Jesus was born of a virgin, He lived a perfect life, and His sacrifice on the cross was a substitution for my punishment so I could be received in Heaven. All the other stuff is good to know info, but it won't keep you out of Heaven. You faith is what saves you, not works, not your denomination, etc. What you teach IS dangerous however. It could lead to things like worship of the wrong deity, conversion to the "Mother Earth" worship, and so on. The verse that Catholics base their whole church dogma on is even wrong. When Jesus asked Peter "Who do you say that I am?" He answered "The Christ". Jesus said that only the Father in Heaven could have revealed that to him. You guys get all hung up on Peter, but you miss the meaning of the statement. Jesus was saying that He built His church on the principle that ONLY GOD can reveal Jesus to you as the Christ and His church would be built on that principle. A person cannot know that Jesus is Christ unless the Holy Spirit reveals it to him/her. Jesus said that the Father gives Him His saints. It had NOTHING to do with Peter. Peter was no more powerful than Paul or John, or anybody after this statement was made. There is no mention of a pope, cardinals, or any of the other governmental stations made by Catholics. All the stuff about nuns and celibacy and fish on Friday and purgatory and indulgence's and on and on is just made up stuff. The killer for me was when they said my children were bastards if they weren't in the Catholic church. Sounds like Bin Laden and his ilk to me.
I have given up on evo threads, and should give up here because it is very difficult to de program Catholics without being in person with our Bibles and talking face to face. I do appreciate your tone, however, because most Catholics would have threatened me or called me names by now. If Christians can't discuss the Bible then we aren't much better than Muslims.
***********************
I don't make any assumptions about anyone's married life, but then I don't spend much time speculating about the sex lives of my friends.
I am glad you posted that, but it will mean nothing to the Catholic-haters who come here playing “The Game.”
After all, in the Game, it is THEY who decide what Catholics believe, even down to the meaning of individual words. Pointing out the bankruptcy of their position only returns cries of “Spin! Spin! Spin!”
Some of them can be observed here keeping score.
So, you don’t think the writings of the Early Church Fathers hold any weight? You don’t think that these people knew the Apostles, or their successors personally? That they might be handing on the teachings of the Apostles, as they had learned it personally from Christ? You think this was just made up? Or do you just not like what they said? What part bothers you?
>>“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).<<
We are ALL one of the one. We are all individual and individually responsible for our own relationship with Him.
Other than that I see the words of a man about his beliefs about Mary. I am puzzled about his strong focus on the issue, but maybe it was his focus at the time.
Regarding the phrase “immaculate of the immaculate”, it sounds like a politician.
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