Before you convert to Roman Catholicism... (Top Ten List)

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2007/08/before_you_convert_to_roman_ca.php ^ | 7 Aug 2007 | James White

[OLD REGGIE]

I don't know about “imposed,” but St. Dismas the good thief certainly performed at least one spiritual work of mercy when he admonished the other thief on the cross. As well, he defended the innocent, another good work.

Forgive me if I say I believe your definiion of "works" is a stretch.

By the same token a confession of faith is a "work" is it not?

[OLD REGGIE]

Perhaps you missed 807.

After I recovered from the stupidity of the question I replied to it.

[sitetest]

Dear OLD REGGIE,

Admonishing sinners isn't a work? Defending the wrongfully accused isn't a work? Instructing the ignorant isn't a work?

You have a much more narrow view of works than do we Catholics.

“By the same token a confession of faith is a ‘work’ is it not?”

Certainly! As was St. Dismas’ confession of sin to the High Priest, his repentance, and his acceptance of his penance on the cross.

But although these are works, I don't know how non-Catholics might look at them, so I didn't include them.

sitetest

[subterfuge]

if you claim to have once embraced the gospel of grace, whereby you confessed that your sole standing before a thrice-holy God was the seamless garment of the imputed righteousness of Christ, so that you claimed no merit of your own, no mixture of other merit with the perfect righteousness of Christ, but that you stood full and complete in Him and in Him alone, at true peace with God because there is no place in the universe safer from the wrath of God than in Christ, upon what possible grounds could you come to embrace a system that at its very heart denies you the peace that is found in a perfect Savior who accomplishes the Father's will and a Spirit who cannot fail but to bring that work to fruition in the life of God's elect?

Oh brother....a 138 word question. That'll clear things up!!

[Petronski]

You have to understand, sitetest:

In “The Game,” words used in the description of your faith do not mean what YOU say they mean. Oh nay nay.

They mean what the Catholic-hater says they mean. If you disagree, you’re just engaged in spin.

[Petronski]

Actually, St. Dismas was saved because, as he and Christ hung on their crosses dying, Christ handed him a “ELECT” vanity plate for his car.

[Petronski]

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

[OLD REGGIE]

The verse quoted implores us all, as brethren, to “stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.”

We are warned to remember the traditions which we have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

Let me, one more time, post the DR intro to 2 Thessalonians:

The day of the Lord is not to come till the man of sin be revealed. The apostle's traditions are to be observed.

Understand? The apostles traditions! DR further footnotes written and unwritten traditions of the apostles!

The fiction of "Revealed Tradition/Truth" came hundreds of years after Scripture was written in order to justify new doctrine which is clearly extra-Scriptural.

[sitetest]

LOL!! That’ll do it every time. Right??

[Petronski]

Understand?

Of course I do.

It is you who has failed.

[OLD REGGIE]

"Your posts to me are so abusive, and your promise to never accept one of my apologies..."

When an "apology" is acompanied with the excuse (paraphrase) "I confused you with Ottofire because you both have three syllables in your name..." I can't take you seriously.

You are correct in that I don't believe any of your admission of error or apologies are heartfelt and sincere. If so you wouldn't launch into one of your typical one line insults immediately thereafter.

[OLD REGGIE]

Admonishing sinners isn't a work? Defending the wrongfully accused isn't a work? Instructing the ignorant isn't a work? You have a much more narrow view of works than do we Catholics.

“By the same token a confession of faith is a ‘work’ is it not?”

Certainly! As was St. Dismas’ confession of sin to the High Priest, his repentance, and his acceptance of his penance on the cross.

But although these are works, I don't know how non-Catholics might look at them, so I didn't include them.

I will not argue with your position. It is a reasonable, if generous, definition of "work".

It seems you might accept the Protestant position that "Faith Alone" is sufficient.

I believe there is a widespread misunderstanding among sincere Catholics and Protestants concerning "Faith/Works".

Most Protestants (I think) believe Faith is always melded with Good Works. The distinction (once again - I think) is the Protestant belief is that Faith Alone is sufficient while Works Alone is never sufficient.

Protestants are invited to tell me how little I know. :)

[sitetest]

Dear OLD REGGIE,

"I will not argue with your position. It is a reasonable, if generous, definition of 'work'."

I have a hard time seeing "admonishing sinners" and "instructing the ignorant" as being "generously" defined as works. These are basic spiritual works of mercy.

“Most Protestants (I think) believe Faith is always melded with Good Works.”

Not sure what you mean exactly by that, but from what I see, non-Catholic/non-Orthodox seem to think that faith and works are two separate things and that only faith is required for salvation.

Even you say that:

“...the Protestant position that “Faith Alone” is sufficient.”

For Catholics, the dichotomization between faith in works seems a little screwy.

“...while Works Alone is never sufficient.”

I don't know any properly-catechized Catholics who believe that.

sitetest

[Palladin]

Letter of St. James

19 You know, my dearest brethren. And let every man be swift to hear, but slow to speak and slow to anger. 20 For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God. 21 Wherefore, casting away all uncleanness and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if a man be a hearer of the word and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. 24 For he beheld himself and went his way and presently forgot what manner of man he was. 25 But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work: this man shall be blessed in his deed. 26 And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue but deceiving his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.

[Palladin]

James 2

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food: 16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

[fortheDeclaration]

[There are no works involved in salvation-period!]

Another fresh expression of the angrily tyrannical nature of Calvinism.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain (Gal.2:21).

Grace is freedom, not tyranny.

It is you who are under the tyranny of a system of religion that gives you a false gospel and keeps in you in bondage to by deception (2Cor.4:4)

[fortheDeclaration]

[I intend to reply when I reply.]

Whether you want to stop losing an argument is of no consequence to me.

No, I am not losing an argument, but you are losing your eternal soul.

[Petronski]

...but you are losing your eternal soul...

You are making yourself God again.

THAT is a very grave sin.

[fortheDeclaration]

[...for your own damnation.]

You attempt again to make yourself God. Ah, but the job is already taken.

Yes, and you have rejected what He has written telling you how to be saved.

You would rather trust in the traditions of men (Mk.7:7).

The Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, who created the system that you are in bondage to are all going to be at the same Judgement, with the millions of people they deceived.(Rev.20)

[fortheDeclaration]

What's the difference between a muslim claiming Christians worship three gods, and a Protestant claiming Catholics have traded grace for works?

What is the difference between a Catholic praying to an idol and idoltry-nothing.